Spell List vs Ritual List

[JoelF]

I hope spells like knock AREN'T rituals. I can't tell you the number of times I've had my wizard, or seen one knock open the chains on a prisoner to free them while the rest of the party fought, so we could bust the prisoner out before more guards came, or so the prisoner could give us much needed help in the battle. Similarly, knocking a locked door so you can flee the combat is pretty useful.

 

[Lackhand]

I hope spells like knock AREN'T rituals. I can't tell you the number of times I've had my wizard, or seen one knock open the chains on a prisoner to free them while the rest of the party fought, so we could bust the prisoner out before more guards came, or so the prisoner could give us much needed help in the battle. Similarly, knocking a locked door so you can flee the combat is pretty useful.

Precisely targeted bolts of molten tungsten for the win!
But I agree, a kind of Fine Telekinesis that lets you open locks, close locks, shoot crossbows, pull levers, press buttons, and otherwise manipulate precisely matter at a distance is necessary.

Heck, as one of my friends said, he'd trade his mage-pushback-strike-thing for it

It can still be an attack power, counting as a grapple or something, don't worry!

 

[DSRilk]

I hope spells like knock AREN'T rituals.

I hope they are rituals and I hope they only open magically "locked" devices. I'd like to see a minute long ritual to magically seal or unseal a door. I don't want a mage unlocking stuff, otherwise we're back to mages eliminating the need for skills. The "rogue" should be the one sneaking around the combat to pop the shackles off the prisoner, not the mage. At least in my games, that's what I'd prefer to see. Obviously I can and will houserule it if this is not the case, but it seems like bad design to create spells that eliminate skill use.

 

[Dausuul]

I hope they are rituals and I hope they only open magically "locked" devices. I'd like to see a minute long ritual to magically seal or unseal a door. I don't want a mage unlocking stuff, otherwise we're back to mages eliminating the need for skills. The "rogue" should be the one sneaking around the combat to pop the shackles off the prisoner, not the mage. At least in my games, that's what I'd prefer to see. Obviously I can and will houserule it if this is not the case, but it seems like bad design to create spells that eliminate skill use.

Exactly, and I have the strong impression WotC feels the same way. Opening locks and bypassing traps is rogue territory. It's okay for wizards to have an outpost in that territory, but only an outpost; there must be substantial drawbacks for a wizard to open locks compared to a rogue or other skill-monkey.

 

[Hussar]

I hope Lackhand is right. I love conjurers. They're my favorite wizard to play. But, I also agree that they can be a right PITA, with keeping track of stats and the fact that the wizard's turn now takes SO long.

What I can see is conjurations that summon swarms of stuff that get one attack per round, or do automatic damage per round. Something that isn't too complicated, but also doesn't let the wizard step on anyone else's toes. Summoning something to be Mine Detector is annoying.

I imagine Identify will be a ritual.

I can see the more powerful buffs being rituals as well. Makes sense - "Hold a vigil and gain the power of the Gawds" sort of thing.

 

[TPK]

Summoning is fun, but it just annoys me to have wizards wave a hand and poof, instant (fairly respectable) servitor!

I can see bringing big monsters out of an item, but for some reason I really need a rune circle and candles and a blood sacrifice, even at high levels, to bring in a Big Gun.

Maybe the best combination would be to have a ritual that lets you summon a beastie, with whom you bargain to travel with your group in disguise/to go incorporeal/to be stuck inside a bottle until you choose to discharge its obligation?

My hopeful guess:

Calling and bargaining with interesting beasties that can do interesting non-combat stuff, ritual.

Summoning single beastie specifically for combat (and maybe checking minefields...), on the lines of 3x psions' astral constructs, per encounter combat power.

That way a summoner can be cool in combat without cluttering the battlefield and wasting inordinate amounts of everyone's time.

 

[Traycor]

I hope spells like knock AREN'T rituals.

Based on the statements that we won't be forced to choose between attack spells and useful spells, I think it's fairly safe to say that knock will be a ritual.

But... I'm not sure it's been stated anywhere that all rituals will be limited to out of combat abilities all the time. In theory, some rituals could be used in battle (assuming I didn't miss something stating otherwise).

 

[Khaim]

I'd guess that they work the way rituals did in Unearthed Arcana (and I think they were reprinted in DMG II? Or am I making that up?)

I kind of doubt that. Making spells into rituals does a few nice things:
[*]Siloing. That is, Phantom Steed no longer competes with Fireball, or anything else for that matter.
[*]Strict out-of-combat application.
[*]Better flavor

Quite frankly, none of these require skill checks. Sure, you want to limit abilities by level, but skill checks are a terrible way to do that. It's much better to just explicitly limit them by level, and I think 4e is taking that to heart. As far as doing things in combat, well, there are better ways to do that as well. I wouldn't be surprised if damage automatically interrupted a ritual.

 

[Traycor]

I wouldn't be surprised if damage automatically interrupted a ritual.

Ooooo. Interesting thought.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I hope they are rituals and I hope they only open magically "locked" devices. I'd like to see a minute long ritual to magically seal or unseal a door. I don't want a mage unlocking stuff, otherwise we're back to mages eliminating the need for skills. The "rogue" should be the one sneaking around the combat to pop the shackles off the prisoner, not the mage. At least in my games, that's what I'd prefer to see. Obviously I can and will houserule it if this is not the case, but it seems like bad design to create spells that eliminate skill use.

I don't see the problem with Knock being a spell. The Rogue can undo locks until their hearts content, the caster is limited by the number of spells they can cast, and each one they use is one they cannot use for combat or other actions. On the other hand, the party without a Rogue is suddenly limited to the ability to break the locks.

What about Invisibility? It reduces the need for Hide.

What I would like to see is Knock being a "per day" use spell that has to make a "Attack" versus the DC of the lock, rather than the perfect lockpick. Maybe it has a prety good bonus so it can bypass a common lock, but truly masterful locks and arcane locks would often be more than can be handled by a low-level caster.