Spell points and Healing Spells

[jchristl]

I would really like to use some kind of Spell Point system instead of the Fire & Forget method; that one never quite made sense to me. I nearly was set on using the UA variant rules method until I came across a post in another group as such:

Next spell point issue:

Level 1 spells cost 1 point to cast
Level 2 spells cost 3 points to cast
Level 3 spells cost 5 points to cast

So a cleric at level 5 has these options:
Cure light wounds 1d8 + caster level (max 5) for 1 point
Cure medium wounds 2d8 + caster level (max 10) for 3 points
Cure serious wounds 3d8 + caster level (max 15) for 5 points

It seems that cure light wounds becomes the defacto cost effective way to heal a character. As an example:

3 points spent: 3d8 + 15 or 2d8 + 5
5 points spent: 5d8 + 25 or 2d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10 or 3d8 + 5

Suddenly downtime involves burning off lots of level 1 cure lights wound, and mid combat is the only time you might see anything else being cast.

In fact I bet it works the same for a magic missile vs fireball:

A fireball 5d6 damage cost 5 spell points and level 5 wizard (5 – 30 damage in a radius with save).

A magic missile 3d4 + 3 costs 1 spell points @ level 5 wiz (6 – 15 dam to 1 or more targets no save).

So a 5th level wiz can expend 5 points (over 5 rounds admittedly) to deliver 15d4 + 15 (30 - 75 damage to 1 target no save).

Magic missile is one heck of an over powered spell for its cost.

Thoughts? Nothing you can really do here but it highlights the spells are truly made for a fire and forget magic system!!

Now that threw a wrench into my whole spell point thing. I was thinking of adopting the Asgard #3 Mana system, but wasn't sure if that under/over balanced things on the high end of the spell-spectrum.

I hope someone here can resolve this for me, as I really like the UA variant, and this is the only thing holding me back.

Thanks

 

[arscott]

Well, to start with, the post above misapplies the spell point rules. In order to get the benifits of increased caster level, you have to spend spell points equal to that caster level.

So that magic missile that does 3d4+3 costs just as much as the fireball that does 5d6.
he could just buy 5 one-point magic missiles, which would have the same average damage as the fireball, but take 5 rounds of spellcasting.

so that should be

3 points spent: 3d8 + 3 or 2d8 + 3
5 points spent: 5d8 + 5 or 2d8 + 3 + 2d8 + 2 or 3d8 + 5

averaged, that comes to
16.5 or 12
and 27.5 or 23 or 18.5

But a regular cleric can spontaneoulsy cast heal, so he can usually do the same thing, and does get the number used in the post above.

3 points spent: 3d8 + 15 or 2d8 + 5
5 points spent: 5d8 + 25 or 2d8 + 5 + 2d8 + 10 or 3d8 + 5

which averaged, comes to
28.5 or 14
and 47.5 or 33 or 18.5

And since a cleric can spontaneously cast heal spells, his only limit is number of spell slots. And by that level, those low-level spell slots don't get used much except for healing.

If anything, that's the one area where spell-points are detrimental to a character.

 

[Cabral]

Well, to start with, the post above misapplies the spell point rules. In order to get the benifits of increased caster level, you have to spend spell points equal to that caster level.

So that magic missile that does 3d4+3 costs just as much as the fireball that does 5d6.
he could just buy 5 one-point magic missiles, which would have the same average damage as the fireball, but take 5 rounds of spellcasting.

Actually, the original post was correct about Cure light wounds. Only spells with damage based on level require +1 spell point per +1 Caster level. So, receiving your full caster level for Magic Missile cost more, Cure Light wounds or Produce Flame does not.

I really like the UA system too and I don't think this is a problem. Basicly you are trading effiiciency (Cure Light Wounds) for speed (Cure Moderate to Cure Critical Wounds) until you can cast Heal.

The problem I'm running into the UA system is I want to use the vitalizing variant but that makes clerics healing machines after they get heal ... (I cast heal, heal, heal and I'm exhausted because my spell points are so low. I cast heal on myself bringing them up to 2/3rds max and then cast heal, ....) Noones playing a cleric (or druid), but I'd still like to resolve that. I also have to see if any other spells remove fatigue/exhaustion.

 

[jchristl]

What about increasing time to cast the healing spell? cure light wounds takes 2 turns to cast, cure moderate takes 1.5 turns, cure serious takes 1 turn, cure critical takes .5 a turn? Maybe even adding a material componet into the mix?

This may resolve both our issues (?)

 

[Cabral]

The problem with that is you're making life very hard for first level characters. In addition, Cure Moderate, Cure Serious, and Cure Critical already have a speed boost. They cure twice, three times, and four times as much (repspectively) as Cure Light Wounds in the same amount of time. The extra energy put into the higher level spells and loss of efficiency is more apparent in the spell point system, but I think that is a perk, not a flaw.

I think you should just try it out. If your cleric is casting cure light wounds instead of a higher spell when fighting a dragon, I think what you'll find is that he is going be to be doing nothing else and probably won't be able to keep up.

 

[mirivor]

The spell point system has some serious problems, in my opinion. I love the basic idea behind the system though.

You should consider doing several things: Completely redo the points given. The Sorcerer gets a shaft the size of the Empire State Building by that chart.

Also, you will run into the issue of dozens of high level spells per day... I haven't figured out how to correct it yet.

I think that spellcasters should get more points and have to pay for caster level advancement regardless of school. This is only a rough perception, but the system as presented in impossible. I know, because I played it.

Later!

 

[Cabral]

When I calculated spell points per level based off the cost of casting the spells and their spells per level, Sorcerers got an insane number of spell points at level 20, over 400, and could cast nearly 30 9th level spells a day without bonus spells. The only way I can think of to solve the problem is to increase the difference in spell costs between levels or change it to an exponential growth. (but then you have a problem with lower level spells being too abundant ...)

As a note, in the Spell Point System in Unearthed Arcana, everyone gets shafted who can cast 7th or higher spells.

 

[maggot]

First, being able to heal in one action for 3d8+5 is worth more than using five actions to heal for 5d8+5. In combat, I know which I'd choose.

I'd see this as a feature, making clerics better healers outside combat and introducing an interesting choice.

Second, if the use of multiple cure lights for healing bothers you could put a limit on the total number of spells per day. That would keep people with casting 120 cure lights over the course of a day. But it would require tracking extra one number.

 

[mirivor]

Cabral: Yes, I did the same thing. It is actually 492 for the Sorcerer. I do not necessarily endorse the idea of full spell points (you need to pay for the versatility after all), but a change should be made. I mean, only 17 more points than the wizard??!! That is ridiculous. I actually plotted out both a 60% and 70% progression based on a direct correllation between the PHB spells given per level and the equivalent points. Both charts looked reasonable, but I kept running into that problem of huge amounts of the highest level spells. That is why I think that making all spells at minimum caster level as the standard might help. After all, there are many, many situations in which the mid level spells will be more efficient.

I think that the spell point system really needs a new spell list. Something like Elements of Magic; a modular create-on-the-fly type thing. I won't abandon the idea though.

Later!

 

[jchristl]

I think that the spell point system really needs a new spell list. Something like Elements of Magic; a modular create-on-the-fly type thing. I won't abandon the idea though.

Yeah, I was thinking of looking up some other spell systems that had points built right into them. Warhammer had a points based system. But I don't know if they had enough spell levels to get ported to D&D - 4 levels for WFRP -to- 9 levels for D&D.

I like the EoM idea, but I despise the whole create-on-the-fly bit. I'd use the spell points driven from it, if only somebody had converted the spells from it already.