Spell Turning: Did it get the shaft?

[Thanee]

Well, as I said, to me a ray is targeted. It isnt a "targeted spell" but its a spell, and its aimed at one person only.

The difference is, that you don't actually target the... well the target.

You create a magical effect, which is then used like a weapon.

It's not much difference to, say, a telekinesis spell, which hurls boulders at the target.

The spell effect does not directly affect the target, but rather indirectly, thus circumventing spell turning, which can only interfere with the targeting process of a spell. Since ray spells do not work in the same way, targeted spells do, they are unaffected by spell turning.

And to answer the initial question... seeing that spell turning is listed in pretty much every thread talking about good spells (i.e. sorcerer spell selection), I can safely say, that it is a very good spell.

You should also keep in mind, that it's not usually known to the opponent, that you are protected by spell turning.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. You cannot compare spells with AD&D to find out whether they work or not. D&D3E is so much different to AD&D, you really have to see the whole picture, I think.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Rays are effect, weird. I missed that little detail. This gets houseruled IMC. I can see no logical reason why a ray spell should not be turned. I understand the concept of the "Effect" descriptor, but not why they included all rays as part of that is lame. It seems to take into account that you conjure something to throw at an opponents which in itself may no longer be magical and thus not affected by magic resistive protections, but how a magical ray of disintegrating energy fits into this category is a mystery to me.

 

[Thanee]

Well, it's fairly easy as a concept. Just think of it this way...

Targeted spells use a mystical connection between the caster and the target to take effect.

Ray spells create a sort-of physical effect (the ray), which delivers the spell like a missile.

Spell turning can use the mystical connection to turn the spell energy back on the caster, but with the physical effect, this is not possible, since there is no such connection.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

Rays are effect, weird. I missed that little detail. This gets houseruled IMC. I can see no logical reason why a ray spell should not be turned. I understand the concept of the "Effect" descriptor, but not why they included all rays as part of that is lame. It seems to take into account that you conjure something to throw at an opponents which in itself may no longer be magical and thus not affected by magic resistive protections, but how a magical ray of disintegrating energy fits into this category is a mystery to me.

Its a mystery to me to. I understand the difference in the "type of targetting" and agree with it. A ray can miss, a Charm Person cant.

the relevent thing is, its a magical affect that is directed against one person.

Ray spells create a sort-of physical effect (the ray), which delivers the spell like a missile.

Well if this be the case...and the difference is big enough to circumvent Spell Turning, rays shouldnt be subject to SR either.

seeing that spell turning is listed in pretty much every thread talking about good spells (i.e. sorcerer spell selection), I can safely say, that it is a very good spell

Well, maybe. But I think the reason it appears in that list is mainly because its more or less the only effective defense mages have against death spells. Its a must-have in campaigns where every bad guy uses the most mechanically effective attack possible against a given oponent (Finger of Death and such against mages) but not because its a great spell...because its the only thing wizards and sorcerers have to defend them from those spells (and it doesnt even work on all of them...Slay Living and Wail of the Banshee spring to mind).

 

[Thanee]

I see it like this... Spell Turning works during the targeting phase of spellcasting, while Spell Resistance works during the effect phase.

There are plenty effective ways to counteract death spells.

Death Ward via Leadership or Limited Wish, for example.
Moment of Prescience or otherwise having a good Fort save.
...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

IMO that is a very powerfull effect. I admit it does not turn most spells but it does turn a sizable portion of them

Not all that sizable. It only turns Targeted spells with a range greater than Touch. Thats a very narrow spectrum. And about half the spells it does affect (various Charm, Dominate and Hold spells and the like) are spells your probably not going to cast on a mage anyway, and that one spell level later the mage can be totaly immune to, all day, via Mind Blank. The only spells it affects that a mage is likely to have cast on him, and that he cant easily defend against with lower level spells, are Finger of Death, Destruction, Implosion, Power Word Kill, and Baleful Polymorph, and Dispel Magic. It does not affect: Touch range spells of any kind, Effect spells, and Area spells. And it only turns about 8 levels of spells on average. And these catagories include many wonderful anti mage spells like: Disintegrate, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee, the Inflict spells, Harm, Energy Drain, and Enervation for example.

It needs to affect Effect spells, or at least Rays, and Touch spells. It still wont turn area spells, which eliminates the majority of damage dealing spells, and even a few other nasty's like Wail of the Banshee.

 

[Merlion]

Death Ward via Leadership or Limited Wish, for example.
Moment of Prescience or otherwise having a good Fort save.
...

Bye
Thanee

Well, I'd say it should be "Death Ward via casting it on yourself"

I'm speaking in terms of the wizard spell list. yes, you can have a friend cohort, charmed monster or whatever cast something else on you.

But on the Wizard-Sorcerer spell list, there is almost nothing that protects against such spells.

Spell Turning, and Moment of Prescience are the only ones I can think of. And Moment of Prescience wont help with Power Word: Kill

Point is, I think people rave about it more because it lets them do a thing theres no other way to do than because its really a wonderful spell.

 

[Merlion]

I see it like this... Spell Turning works during the targeting phase of spellcasting, while Spell Resistance works during the effect phase

And while I understand your metaphor, their arent really phases of spellcasting in DnD. Spell Turning and Spell Resistance work in the same fashion, one is just much more limited than the other.

 

[Hypersmurf]

the relevent thing is, its a magical affect that is directed against one person.

Meh. It's a useful distinction that shows up in other places as well.

Taking into account the wording change from the Tome and Blood FAQ for the Split Ray feat, Finger of Death can be Chained; Searing Light can't. Searing Light can be Split; Finger of Death can't.

-Hyp.

 

[Merlion]

Meh. It's a useful distinction that shows up in other places as well.

I'm not disupting that. I'm disputing that it should make a difference for Spell Turning.

I think it should turn any non-area affect that is aimed, focused, targeted or whatever you want to call it, just at the caster. And that includes Searing Light, Disintegrate and whatever else

Considering that it turns not that many levels of spells, and only a very, very narrow range of spells (Target only), I dont think its as strong as a 7th level spell should be. theres no reason it shouldnt effect Rays and Touch spells.