Spell Turning: Did it get the shaft?

[Pax]

Excuse me, I miscalculated. The point is, its still a 7th level spell called Spell Turning and it only affects about a quarter of the spells in the PH

Exactly, it's only a seventh level spell, and it renders you functionally immune to one spell out of every four in the core books (at least once, per casting of spell turning). Do as most rabid spellcasters do (guilty as charged, in fact), and go beyond the PHB, and you get to around maybe 1/3 of all offensive spells - that's one spell in three.

But it cant bounce their best attack spells. It can bounce mind control spells, 3 save or die spells (that are especially devistating to mages, and the fact that Spell Turning is the only defense mages have against such spells is one of the only reasons it even gets used....of course I find that silly as well since mages should have Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity and Death ward), and 3 damaging dealing spells.
Being restricted is one thing. Being that restricted, as a 7th level spell, is another.

Um. No offense ... okay, the truth is, I don't care if this gives offense or not ... but ... this is SO utterly laughable! You're neglecting a LOT of spells out there. You don't need to defend only against "save or die" or "save or take a bucketful of damage" spells.

Dispels. Curses. Status-effect spells.

If you're a 13th leel wizard who likes to run around with lots of protective magics up, then trust me, you want spell turning - because of dispel magic. To hell with nonsense like disintegrate, you don't want them stripping all those defensive and protective spells off of you with a SINGLE spell thrown your way. Spell Turning is what prevents that - they don't want to risk losing their OWN spells, due to having their dispel hurled back in their teeth!

Spell Turning is not, and never should hve been, a panacea to all magical woes, a way to say to the enemy wizard(s) "haha, you're all useless now!" It is but one protective measure among many, which a smart wizard will endeavor to include in his or her arsenal of spells.

Spell Turning does not affect Ray or Touch spells. The fact that Mirror Image does (sort of) is irrelevent to this discussion.

The first thing that a Disintegrate-packing BBEG will want to do, when faced by a Mirror-Image'd PC wizard, is strip off the mirror image and probable other protective spells. The way they do that would be a dispel magic or greater dispel.

Either of which can and WILL be rebounded by a spell turning. It's called "two spells make a better magical defense than one".

How is it not easy to get around? Wail of the Banshee,

Not targetted, so Spell Turning never would affect it. It's an AREA spell. IT just so happens that it's also a ninth level spell; it SHOULD be able to get past/around spell turning!

Circle of Death,

Again, area spell. And ... any wizard that CAN cast spell turning, is IMMUNE to Circle of Death! No creature with more than 9HD can be killed by CoD, and you have to have at least thirteen levels of wizard to cast Spell Turning. Your point is ... ?

Slay Living,

It's a touch spell. Any wizard who lets a hostile cleric get THAT close to him, and doesn't have a killer touch AC, deserves to die!

Destruction

This most assuredly IS subject to Spell Turning. It's a Target spell, subject to Spell Resistance.

are all Fort-save-or-die spells that Spell Turning doesnt affect.

Not all of them, actually. And most of them should be more of a worry to the party Meat Shields than to a spellcaster, IMO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The first thing that a Disintegrate-packing BBEG will want to do, when faced by a Mirror-Image'd PC wizard, is strip off the mirror image and probable other protective spells. The way they do that would be a dispel magic or greater dispel.

Bah. Use Message, and show your DM the 3E FAQ on Mirror Image

-Hyp.

 

[Merlion]

Well after that healthy helping of abuse, I am bowing out of my own thread and again contemplating having my ENworld account removed entirely.

 

[Pax]

*SIGH*

That wasn't abuse, Merlion; critical yes; abusive ... no, not IMO; not even close. I took your arguments, and dissected them one by one.

Addressing the message is not the same as abusing the messenger.

 

[HeavyG]

Personally, I think that Spell Turning is mostly fine as it is, but that it should also turn ranged touch spells. But not melee touch or area spells.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Yes spell turning sucks, it sucks so hard I find it laughable that people actually defend it. Oh yeah its just one of many spells a prepared wizard should cast to defend themselves while they apparently have 7 years to prepare and cast spells before every battle. Considering that a frickin 5th level cleric spell is about 5 times more powerful than this hunk of junk it is a waste of space for a 7th level spell. Heck this is a waste of space for a 6th level spell. Wizards suck butt at defending against magic its as simple as that. There best defenses are basically I'm a hard target for anything to hit me spells like dispacement. Spells that actually protect against magic they suck at.

It defends against a way to narrow range of spells for a way to small amount of spell levels. If it turned like 1d6+4 spell levels every round it was up then we're talking a 7th level spell when its got such a narrow focus, but just 1d6+4 and that narrow of a focus its a waste of ink.

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, I think ST is okay but prolly could go down a level. Another fix that I think is prolly decent is to just let it turn a few more levels worth of spells before expiring- perhaps 1d10+4 or 1d6+1/2 caster levels (max +10) or something.

If you feel strongly that it's underpowered, you could let it turn rays as well, but imho it's fine.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well after that healthy helping of abuse...

I'm... not sure which abuse you're talking about...?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Grazzt]

Well after that healthy helping of abuse, I am bowing out of my own thread and again contemplating having my ENworld account removed entirely.

I must be missing something somewhere. Where's the abuse you speak of? All I saw was peeps responding to your posts. So some disagreed with your points...that's quite a far cry from abuse.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Exactly, it's only a seventh level spell, and it renders you functionally immune to one spell out of every four in the core books (at least once, per casting of spell turning). Do as most rabid spellcasters do (guilty as charged, in fact), and go beyond the PHB, and you get to around maybe 1/3 of all offensive spells - that's one spell in three.

Here's the list of applicable spells, Pax:

Baleful Polymorph
Blindness/Deafness
Cause Fear
Chain Lightning
Charm Animal
Charm Monster*
Charm Monster, Mass*
Charm Person*
Command*
Command, Greater*
Confusion*
Confusion, Lesser*
Daze*
Destruction
Discern Lies*
Discern Location*
Dispel Magic
Dispel Magic, Greater
Dominate Monster*
Dominate Person*
Doom
Enthrall*
Eyebite*
Feeblemind*
Finger of Death
Flesh to Stone
Geas/Quest
Gaes, Lesser
Hold Monster*
Hold Monster, Mass*
Hold Person*
Hold Person, Mass*
Horrid Wilting
Implosion
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Insanity*
Locate Creature*
Magic Jar
Magic Missile
Maze
Modify Memory*
Nightmare*
Phantasmal Killer*
Polymorph Any object
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Reduce Person
Reduce Person, Mass
Scare*
Slow
Song of Discord*
Suggestion*
Suggestion, Mass*
Tasha’s Hideous Laughter*
Telekinesis
Trap the Soul
Weird

All of the asterisked spells in that list are blocked by mind blank, which, unlike ST, lasts all day, has no limit on the number of blocked spells, and is useful in lots of other ways, too.

If you're a 13th leel wizard who likes to run around with lots of protective magics up, then trust me, you want spell turning - because of dispel magic. To hell with nonsense like disintegrate, you don't want them stripping all those defensive and protective spells off of you with a SINGLE spell thrown your way. Spell Turning is what prevents that - they don't want to risk losing their OWN spells, due to having their dispel hurled back in their teeth!

Great. ONE application, that works probably no more than once, and requires that you prepare a precious 7th-level spell and cast it no longer than a few minutes prior to combat. It's not hugely underpowered, but it ain't exactly sexy, is it? I'd say let ST work on the RTA spells, at least. It creates a pretty mental picture (reflecting rays?) and doesn't exactly break the spell.