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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8130749" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Again, I never see "has X type of save" brought up except as a defense for the sorcerer. If people ask "what is so great about bards" the phrase "They have Dex saves to avoid damage" never comes up. Sorcerery points are a limited and precious resource, using them in a "might as well, might need it" manner is just wasteful. And on hiding, you seem to have missed the point. You cast the spell and hide during combat. Now what? You aren't contributing to the combat anymore, because the moment you do your invisibility drops. Are you simply hiding until your party loses the fight? If you just needed to get out of the fight, you are better off simply running away. Also, if you want to consider a passive perception of 11, being invisible would grant you advantage on stealth checks, giving you a passive 15 stealth, and that is even assuming that during combat you would use a passive perception at all. So, still, all of this seems very niche and very much just using the ability because you can, not because it is actively helpful in more than a handful of situations.You are missing the point entirely. Paladin auras, Wildshape and Channel Divinty are active, new effects in the game. As a druid player, I can definetly say that there have been times when using my wildshape has changed the course of the game, because I knew "hey, I can solve this problem with wildshape." Metamagic doesn't do that. Continuing with invisibility, let use some set framing. {X} is all the times invisibility is useful. {Y} is all the times invisibility is not useful no matter how long it lasts{X'1} is all the times invisibility would be useful, if invisibility lasted an additional hour. By logical neccessity, {X'1} must be the smallest of those three sets, because it is between the times that the spell is useful and the times when it is never useful. We can argue all day about the exact size of this set, but it is smaller than the other two. So a wizard taking Invisibility gets {X} the larger share of all the times casting invisibility is useful to the party. A sorcerer also gets {X}, making them equal, but then adds {X'1} if they take extended spell. Extended spell has not reduced {Y}. It has not given us a situation where Invisibility would not have helped, and made invisibility help. And think for a moment about the examples you gave me. Wildshape, Paladin Aura's, Channel Divinity. Are those the only things those classes can do? NoDruids also have ritual casting, a unique spell list, and weapon and armor proficiencies and ways to leverage those proficiencies with decent Hp and spell augments. Clerics get ritual casting, a unique spell list, weapon and armor proficiencies, Divine Intervention, decent hp and every subclass gets a level 8 damage boostPaladins get superb hp, all armor, all weapons, non-spell healing, divine sense, divine smite, channel divinities, fighting styles, a unique spell list, extra attack and divine health. And I'm not talking about specific subclasses, I'm talking about the base class. Each of those abilities you listed that give entirely new actions, buffs or things you can accomplish are part of a set of abilities. Sorcerers don't get armor. Don't get most weapons. Don't get good health. Don't get a unique spell list. They have con saves and metamagic. And all metamagic does is allow niche uses of spells that other people can cast anyways.</blockquote>

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