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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Asisreo" data-source="post: 8131408" data-attributes="member: 7019027">I was referring to Subtle Wish in particular. Not just the spells on their spell list. Survivability is important, but most sorcerers have ways to tilt their survivability further with their subclass. I only have my PHB on me, but draconic has a basic permanent mage armor and +lvl HP to increase both AC and HP of sorcs passively. Wild Magic has at least 1 advantage to saving throws, which is the earliest time you can get such a feature without v. Human feats. Shield is really the most important survivability spell, maybe take mirror image too if you're paranoid but most sorcerers are more durable than their wizard counterparts, save maybe war and adjuration wizards. I mean, if you make the attack option as a fighter at levels 1-4, rude people could argue you're essentially barbarian-lite. Sounds like the group would need to have a discussion about expectations at that point. Because if they wanted a wizard in the party so much, they should have been one. But rude remarks from hypothetical players aside, its not about the spells you cast but how you cast them. I mean, you should be using at least some metamagic and using your fonts. If you're not, you're 100% correct. Its like being a Ranger who never casts spells, you may as well have been a fighter or rogue. Or like being a Barbarian that never rages, you may as well have been a fighter or paladin. If a player never uses the features that make them distinct from another class, that player will feel like that class but a little less. Its your choice of spells from beginning to end. Its also your choice or metamagic. You can always choose the combinations that work for your options. It wouldn't make any sense for a sorcerer to take empowered metamagic when they have no plans on taking any AoE spells. Likewise, why take Twinned when you'll only cast AoE spells or spells that already target multiple creatures? Sorcerers have their pros and their cons, just as all classes. They're fairly complex and can be quite overwhelming, especially amongst spellcasters. However, a player that can work with the sorcerer class rather than against it will be able to see their strengths as what they are. If versatility is required for you to feel powerful, then sorcerer isn't the spellcaster for you. However, if you enjoy resource management and optimizing play, sorcerers are a fun class. They're harder to build, no doubt, but its rewarding if you can do so well.</blockquote>

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