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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8303342" data-attributes="member: 93670">Actually the martial peak is quite a bit higher to an absurd degree<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">One round averages will look like this.  Fighters get an ASI at 4 6 8 12 14 16 & 19<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greatsword (avg 2x3.5)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=10</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=22 [awwww... a level 5 fighter with a starting greatsword is a crippling two points behind toll the dead cast by a level 20 spellcaster, fighters are sooooo oppressed by those casters in 5e]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=36 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=48</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=20</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=42</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=66</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=88</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=11</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=24</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=39[this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 13 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=52</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=21</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=44</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=69[</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=92</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade to a +2 greatsword & you get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=12</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=26[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=42</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=56</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=222</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=46[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=72</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=96</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade that+2 with something like [spoiler="this"][ATTACH=full]135891[/ATTACH][/spoiler] obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=15.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=33 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 5 points]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=52.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=70</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=25.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=53 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 5 points]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=92.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=110</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="here's all that with a one handed 1d8 longsword & shield"] [/spoiler]</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="here's all that with a one handed 1d8 longsword & shield"] .... <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1 handed longsword(avg4.5) & shield</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+3=7.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+4)=17</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+5)=28.5 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+5)=38</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+4=8.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+5)=19</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+6)=31.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+6)=42</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade to a +2 longsword & you get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+5=9.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6)=21</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7)=34.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7=46</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade that+2 with something like [spoiler="this"][ATTACH=full]135891[/ATTACH][/spoiler] obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:1d8+5+3.5 fire=13</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6+3.5 fire)=30</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7+3.5 fire)=45</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7)=60</li> </ul></li> </ul>[*][/spoiler] 5e's quadratic fighter comes into play in that any gains in weapon mods from both strength along the weapon itself is multiplicative. For comparison here's what happens to the damage that level 20 toll the dead cantrip you brought up before and after adding a <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/wand-of-the-war-mage" target="_blank">+3 wand of the warmage</a> Before: 4d12=4*(6.5)=26 After: 4d12=4*(6.5+0)=26 I'm pretty sure I don't need to illustrate the lower tiers.  If you look at dmg249 there is a chart for adjudicating targets in areas of effect (when not using minis & a grid) you can see numbers wotc seems to assume for all spells, but that requires both that many opponents in a given fight as well as those opponents being cooperatively spaced in a manner that allows optimum coverage while not taking into consideration slot consumption to any meaningful dergree.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">  Rogue is similar to fighter but has a breakpoint every other level & many many per round/build "what if" choices that make the comparison more difficult also any time the fighter pops action surge it doubles whatever they had going that round for huge spike damage that recharges on a short rest & compares absurdly well against leveled spell burn that itself is not usually that far ahead of the fighter's at will</li> </ul>This is average at will damage from the fighter comparing favorably with average high damage high level spells  even before short rest recovering action surge gets used to also deal peak.  Peak from a caster is rarely going to exceed the delta between caster &fighter last round or two once both have their output added in the peak round & martials still have ways of dealing spike damage as well.<a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GvcTLXGHeSovGWFKTJRXMjThOfLUTxZRF9XJO3Yx-tI/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">Here</a> is a handy sheet breaking down leveled spell damage at various slot levels, you can try to pick  & choose, but don't forget that the steady slow of spell slot accumulation beginning at character level 3  will ensure that burning high level spell slots  is likely going to be limited to one maybe two castings per long rest... That one cast of meteor swarm in a whiteroom filled with wall to wall mooks might look impressive on paper, but  doorways & other choke points are a thing that doesn't require a prep slot  while not really doing all that much more than the fighter's at will damage to whatever targets happen to be part of an encounter to be in a 40ft radius sphere[spoiler="slot slowdown"][ATTACH=full]138250[/ATTACH][/spoiler]</blockquote>

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