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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8305295" data-attributes="member: 87792">On a tangent in 5e cantrips are not the rough equivalent of the martial character's attacks (with the sole exception of adding Agonizing Blast to Eldritch Blast). Instead they are more balanced with a spellcaster shooting a crossbow and are about half the equivalent of a martial character's attack.Where "the same sort" means that the fighter has a choice between e.g. hitting you with a sword while driving you back and an attack that trades power for accuracy and a wizard may have a choice between a mini-fireball thrown at a distance and a close range and hasty blast of thunder. If area fireballs are the exact same sort of thing as sword strokes we may as well go pure abstract.You're looking for a game that isn't D&D then. Certainly one without D&D's attempt to make different types of caster by giving them different spell lists.We could at least start by raising the bar of martials up to real world. A solid hit from a sword should kill. And this applies to just about any flesh and blood monster. I don't care what you are, a sword through the skull will kill you in a single hit unless you are very lucky. There's no reason that magic needs to insta-kill. It just needs to do other things - it doesn't need to be better at everything.Then we can continue by fixing armour - which was thoroughly broken by 3.0 keeping armour values almost the same but escalating strength bonuses to hit.In D&D we aren't playing with martials having real world capability. We're playing with martials having an action-movie level ability to face tank and exceptionally limited ability to kill.So you're saying to scrap the fighter because they are from a much grittier genre?Me, I want to play Hercules, Cu-Chulain, or Lancelot as a fighter. Fighters should be mythic heroes. Paladins are a specific thing.And the mercenaries who proceed through life using their combat expertise despite being weaker than their companions aren't fighters - they are rogues.So putting Frank Castle into plate makes him a holy warrior? You're arguing with yourself here.And the "completely flavourless Slayer" was to appease the people who wanted pre-4e fighters. The ones with no set class features. That's on your DM. If mine had stuck to only one foe in most combats in 4e I wouldn't have been impressed either.</blockquote>

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