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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8306306" data-attributes="member: 7030563">To start with choice and complexity are two different things, second the Champion gets two fighting styles and there a ton of choices with them, especially when you consider superior technique alone has numerous different builds.I did not say you can't make a wizard more complex than a champion.&nbsp; The argument is that &quot;any wizard&quot; is more complex than &quot;any champion&quot; as if the class and subclass alone determine complexity and that simply isn't true.Sure you CAN make all those choices with a wizard too, but that isn't the point.&nbsp; This is not a competition to see which can be built with the highest complexity.As for feats, remember we are talking about any champion, which would include champions at tables that do allow feats (and that is most of them).&nbsp; If you are at one of the few tables that does not allow feats that severely restricts the amount of diversity you can build into any character.&nbsp; It also means you can't use two of the races, including the most popular race played (Variant Human).The Dwarf illusionist example I gave earlier is pretty darn simple.&nbsp; Certainly not as simple as the simplest fighter (which I am not sure is even a champion), but simple none the less.&nbsp; You can absolutely make a far more complex wizard.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8306306, member: 7030563"] To start with choice and complexity are two different things, second the Champion gets two fighting styles and there a ton of choices with them, especially when you consider superior technique alone has numerous different builds. I did not say you can't make a wizard more complex than a champion. The argument is that "any wizard" is more complex than "any champion" as if the class and subclass alone determine complexity and that simply isn't true. Sure you CAN make all those choices with a wizard too, but that isn't the point. This is not a competition to see which can be built with the highest complexity. As for feats, remember we are talking about any champion, which would include champions at tables that do allow feats (and that is most of them). If you are at one of the few tables that does not allow feats that severely restricts the amount of diversity you can build into any character. It also means you can't use two of the races, including the most popular race played (Variant Human). The Dwarf illusionist example I gave earlier is pretty darn simple. Certainly not as simple as the simplest fighter (which I am not sure is even a champion), but simple none the less. You can absolutely make a far more complex wizard. [/QUOTE]

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