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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8306369" data-attributes="member: 7030563">They are not static. You can change fighting styles every four levels and there are 33 different options you can take for fighting style using only official WOTC material.That said, sure choices are limited but there is a crapload of stuff he gets and unlike spells it is not a consistent theme or similar mechanic for all of them.&nbsp; It is &quot;complex&quot; to play.That is not true.&nbsp; Make a champion like I described and write all his crap on your character sheet and you will have stuff all over the place with tons of different &quot;slots&quot; for different abilities with the different numbers that recharge some on long rests and some on short rests.It might not be more complex to build, but it is certainly more complex to play and a more complex character in general.Feats are in RAW.&nbsp; Optional does&nbsp; not mean defaulted to no.If we are debating how to make the most complex character possible, then yes multiclasses would be appropriate, but that is not the discussion.&nbsp; The discussion is about the most complex single class fighter with the champion subclass.&nbsp; That precludes subclass from the discussion.A single class champion fighter must have a race, it must have a background and it must take either ASIs or feats, so yes all of those things contribute to the potential complexity of a single class champion fighter made under&nbsp; the RAW.I am not talking about going out of the bounds of the rules as written.&nbsp; That said I will freely admit if your table does not allow feats then the variation you can build into your characters is far more narrow in scope and there is much less variety.This is true for any caster who casts SOME illusions but the features associated with the school of illusion are relatively simple and largely separate from this point regarding illusion spells (which is itself valid for some spells).&nbsp;&nbsp; For spells like minor image, silent image, phantasmal force this is a legitimate point for any caster, but for many (most?) illusions it is not.&nbsp; Shadow Blade, Blur, Mirror image, invisibility .... there is little variability for those illusions or many others.Also FWIW the Champion character I gave as an example had two illusion spells (out of 6 spells total), one of them would have likely fell into this bin.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8306369, member: 7030563"] They are not static. You can change fighting styles every four levels and there are 33 different options you can take for fighting style using only official WOTC material. That said, sure choices are limited but there is a crapload of stuff he gets and unlike spells it is not a consistent theme or similar mechanic for all of them. It is "complex" to play. That is not true. Make a champion like I described and write all his crap on your character sheet and you will have stuff all over the place with tons of different "slots" for different abilities with the different numbers that recharge some on long rests and some on short rests. It might not be more complex to build, but it is certainly more complex to play and a more complex character in general. Feats are in RAW. Optional does not mean defaulted to no. If we are debating how to make the most complex character possible, then yes multiclasses would be appropriate, but that is not the discussion. The discussion is about the most complex single class fighter with the champion subclass. That precludes subclass from the discussion. A single class champion fighter must have a race, it must have a background and it must take either ASIs or feats, so yes all of those things contribute to the potential complexity of a single class champion fighter made under the RAW. I am not talking about going out of the bounds of the rules as written. That said I will freely admit if your table does not allow feats then the variation you can build into your characters is far more narrow in scope and there is much less variety. This is true for any caster who casts SOME illusions but the features associated with the school of illusion are relatively simple and largely separate from this point regarding illusion spells (which is itself valid for some spells). For spells like minor image, silent image, phantasmal force this is a legitimate point for any caster, but for many (most?) illusions it is not. Shadow Blade, Blur, Mirror image, invisibility .... there is little variability for those illusions or many others. Also FWIW the Champion character I gave as an example had two illusion spells (out of 6 spells total), one of them would have likely fell into this bin. [/QUOTE]

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