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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8306407" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think that's up for grabs . . . but then how about Perceval in the film Excalibur, who is a peasant boy who hangs out in the kitchens at Camelot and then is able to make a credible offer to face Sir Gawain in a joust? And goes on - in that version of the story - to find the Grail.My point is that I think treating martial prowess of D&D PCs as if it is all training, and not "fate" or "destiny" or divine grace creates a very limited niche for them to live within, that will probably bump into "realism" limits on their abilities pretty quickly. I mean, Conan has most of the prowess he has not because of any training, but because he's just that tough! But the most natural way to model that in D&D would be by giving him levels in a martial classs (take your pick from fighter, rogue, barbarian, ranger or warlord).I know there's a school of thought that holds that everything "innate" should be in stats and race; that all divine grace should be in cleric or paladin class features; etc. But I think that pretty quickly becomes pretty unworkable, and gives rise to the standard problems for martial PCs especially moving into 10th+ level.In his DMG (pp 111-12) Gygax observes that "the accumulation of hit points and the ever-greater abilities and better saving throws of characters represents the aid supplied bysupernatural forces." Given this, there's no reason to think about fighter class abilities in terms of "basic training" vs "veteran" vs "grizzled veteran". Give them abilities that fit the genre (feats of physical prowess and command are the obvious candidates) and that balance with other classes, without worrying about how they trained to achieve them.I'm one of those who thinks "hp as meat" is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure [USER=87792]@Neonchameleon[/USER] agrees.But if we accept that nearly every ogre has enough luck and "plot armour" that it's always going to take multiple attempts to bring them down, then (and this was Neonchameleon's point as I understand it) why are fighters not getting the same sort of benefit of living in that same genre-space of high (even gonzo) fantasy?</blockquote>

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