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Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8306552" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>That's been my experience with all...four or five 5e games I've joined, yes. Completely different groups each time, if that's relevant. They all fell apart later for not-directly-related reasons.</p><p></p><p>Also, I wanted to build a little more on my above issues. Let's say we DO consider this 12th-level Variant Human Fighter. Firstly, you've made a small error: a 12th-level Fighter has 4 ASIs from her class features (one at level 4, 6, 8, and 12), and one from being a Variant Human. Total 5, not 6.</p><p></p><p>If she's got one, then surely her wizard-playing buddy is in the same boat: 12th-level Variant Human Wizard. That's a character with 4 ASIs, as opposed to the 5 that the Fighter has. But! The Wizard doesn't need GWM or any other feat for improving his combat capacity. So this equal-level Wizard could quite easily have (say) +2 Int, +2 Int, Prodigy, Skilled--effectively equivalent to what the Fighter has, once you have to shed one of those feats.</p><p></p><p>And now let's consider some spells, eh? A 12th-level Wizard can cast up to 6th level spells, and knows an absolute minimum of eight 1st-level spells and (unless they've chosen to pick lower-level spells) four each of every higher level. So! This Wizard can have access to (just picking out a few standouts): <em>mass suggestion, programmed illusion, true seeing</em> (one of these once a day); <em>geas<em>, legend lore,</em> skill empowerment</em> (any two uses, potentially three with Arcane Recovery); <em>charm monster, divination</em> (a ritual), <em>fabricate</em> (3 uses, up to 4 with AR); <em>major image, speak with dead, tongues</em> (3 uses, up to 5 with AR); <em>detect thoughts, enhance ability, suggestion</em> (3 uses, up to 6 with AR); <em>comprehend languages </em>(rit)<em>, disguise self, find familiar </em>(rit)<em>, Tenser's floating disk</em> (rit), <em>unseen servant</em> (rit) (4 uses, up to 8 with AR). All uses don't count ritual casting, and I have not allowed for this Wizard learning even a <em>single</em> spell from copying a scroll or another arcane caster's spellbook.</p><p></p><p>And I specifically made sure to include enough room for at least 1 combat spell of every level. This 12th-level, Int 20 Wizard can prepare 17 spells (5 Int mod + 12 Wizard levels). That gives two spells of every level, plus 5 flexible spells of any level you like--and in general you can skip preparing any of the ritual spells because those don't <em>need</em> to be cast in a single round anyway, which would let you prepare the vast majority of the above spells.</p><p></p><p>So...yeah. This Wizard can hand out Expertise in any skill at least once a day <em>without</em> compromising his combat capabilities, and throw on <em>enhance ability</em> (advantage on all checks for a chosen stat!) several times a day. Where's the Fighter's equivalent to that level of flexibility? Particularly when the Wizard can simply <em>do more combat spells</em> if the utility ones don't happen to be useful today?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8306552, member: 6790260"] That's been my experience with all...four or five 5e games I've joined, yes. Completely different groups each time, if that's relevant. They all fell apart later for not-directly-related reasons. Also, I wanted to build a little more on my above issues. Let's say we DO consider this 12th-level Variant Human Fighter. Firstly, you've made a small error: a 12th-level Fighter has 4 ASIs from her class features (one at level 4, 6, 8, and 12), and one from being a Variant Human. Total 5, not 6. If she's got one, then surely her wizard-playing buddy is in the same boat: 12th-level Variant Human Wizard. That's a character with 4 ASIs, as opposed to the 5 that the Fighter has. But! The Wizard doesn't need GWM or any other feat for improving his combat capacity. So this equal-level Wizard could quite easily have (say) +2 Int, +2 Int, Prodigy, Skilled--effectively equivalent to what the Fighter has, once you have to shed one of those feats. And now let's consider some spells, eh? A 12th-level Wizard can cast up to 6th level spells, and knows an absolute minimum of eight 1st-level spells and (unless they've chosen to pick lower-level spells) four each of every higher level. So! This Wizard can have access to (just picking out a few standouts): [I]mass suggestion, programmed illusion, true seeing[/I] (one of these once a day); [I]geas[I], legend lore,[/I] skill empowerment[/I] (any two uses, potentially three with Arcane Recovery); [I]charm monster, divination[/I] (a ritual), [I]fabricate[/I] (3 uses, up to 4 with AR); [I]major image, speak with dead, tongues[/I] (3 uses, up to 5 with AR); [I]detect thoughts, enhance ability, suggestion[/I] (3 uses, up to 6 with AR); [I]comprehend languages [/I](rit)[I], disguise self, find familiar [/I](rit)[I], Tenser's floating disk[/I] (rit), [I]unseen servant[/I] (rit) (4 uses, up to 8 with AR). All uses don't count ritual casting, and I have not allowed for this Wizard learning even a [I]single[/I] spell from copying a scroll or another arcane caster's spellbook. And I specifically made sure to include enough room for at least 1 combat spell of every level. This 12th-level, Int 20 Wizard can prepare 17 spells (5 Int mod + 12 Wizard levels). That gives two spells of every level, plus 5 flexible spells of any level you like--and in general you can skip preparing any of the ritual spells because those don't [I]need[/I] to be cast in a single round anyway, which would let you prepare the vast majority of the above spells. So...yeah. This Wizard can hand out Expertise in any skill at least once a day [I]without[/I] compromising his combat capabilities, and throw on [I]enhance ability[/I] (advantage on all checks for a chosen stat!) several times a day. Where's the Fighter's equivalent to that level of flexibility? Particularly when the Wizard can simply [I]do more combat spells[/I] if the utility ones don't happen to be useful today? [/QUOTE]
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