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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8309545" data-attributes="member: 7030563">But the premise is players, or more clearly experienced players don't want to play them.  I don't think that is ture1E fighters were far more powerful  than magic users.  There is a myth that 1E magic users caught up at high level but that did not play out in game (unless you got silly with wish or for illusionists alter  reality).  With double specilization a fighter could kill an equal level magic user in 1 round at almost any level and if you played RAW magic users could  generally not get off a spell after melee was joined do to the rules about casting in melee and enemies prioritizing magic users as targets.    At 18th level a magic-user could summon an 8th level monster to help him.... once a day .....and it would show up 1 round later.  A typical 4th-level fighter could defeat a typical 8hd monster one-on-one in 2-3 rounds.At high levels magic users got powerful spells that could do decent damage in a round and/or completely disable the enemy if they hit ... a few times a day.  But by that time the fighter and the monsters that used fighter saves had very low saves required so it would be uncommon for damaging spells to do high damage and uncommon for disabling spells to work.   Note the damage from high level spells only kept up with fighters, it did not actually do better in general.  The only spell that would actually outdamage what an equivalent-level fighter with 18 strength would do is meteor swarm .... if the enemy failed the save.That is without even bringing up magic resistance.Put a 14th-level magic user against Lolth and he would lose ... unless he was able to use a spell to flee.  Put a 14th level fighter against Lolth and he will kill her in 2 rounds generally .... 1 round if he is wearing a girlde of giant strength.I did not play as much 2E as 1E.  2E was a little better, but magic-users were still weaker than fighters.3E is the first time they were balanced.  In 3E it is really difficult to talk about balance though because it was entirely dependant on what you were fighting and how well you as a character manpiulated the rules in your build for the specific foe  you were facing.  Something that is overpowering against one foe is completely useless against another and something built to be powerful in broad terms would generally not be very strong or optimized in any fights.  I found this to be true regardless of the class.4E just sucked and was more of a video game than an RPG5E is the first time classes have been generally well balanced in my opinion.</blockquote>

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