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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8315415" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>I play them all the time, I have played with 8 different DMs in the past year, many of them on roll 20.</p><p></p><p>I don't play stupid. I don't just walk up to the enemy and stand there and swing my sword.</p><p></p><p>Even if you play stupid, protection fighting style is probably worth 2 points in constitution alone. More if you don't have any healing in your group.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No he won't, not reliably against an intelligent foe that uses ready action, dodge, shove, cover etc. Even against a stupid played enemy such a Rogue would have to invest in combat-related ASIs and/or combat feats to keep up with the fighter that starts with a 16 S and invests in nothing.</p><p></p><p>When you average it out, considering the fighters fighting style (if applicable), maneuvers (if any), extra attacks and the times Rogues are not getting SA, the Rogue will not keep up.</p><p></p><p>An 11th level Rogue gets 6d6+1d8+5 when he gets SA, which is most of the time but not every turn. An 11th level fighter that invests nothing at all into combat can do 6d6+9 every single turn, he is already equal to SA with his always on ability. Plus he can do action surge, has a fighting style and maneuvers or runes or crits on a 19 or a host of other potential subclass abilities without investing in combat ASIs at all.</p><p></p><p>He also has hps slightly better than a Rogue with 2 points higher in constitution and can get a full hit dice plus level back in combat once per short rest.</p><p></p><p>He is simply better in combat than the Rogue even without dumping any ASIs into it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>A decent ranged attack on a strength melee character is almost useless when you can just use a thrown weapon.</p><p></p><p>You invest in what you want and let me build the character I want.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is your problem, your opinion of the fighter class is built around a stereotype.</p><p></p><p>In one of my groups I play with regularly we have no problem convincing the Wizard to "run melee" as you put it. She is far better at avoiding hits and staying alive than I am, far better than the Paladin in the group and better than the barbarian and is better than a fighter would be even if optimized for this specifically. In a previous game the same player, playing a similar wizard character went multiple levels being the primary front liner without getting hit a single time in combat by an attack. Unlike me, her tactic was run to the front get right up to the enemies and don't move until he is dead.</p><p></p><p>She was a bladesinger that could push her AC to about 30 while also imposing disadvantage. She pretty much never got hit. She had low hps as it was but she could have had just 1 hp and she still would have survived almost every combat that did not involve casters or breath weapons. How high do you need to pump constitution to make up in hps for a character that will go 25ish battles without getting hit by a single attack at all?</p><p></p><p>You want to really play a character who is really optimized for taking attacks - play a wizard. Nothing else is close (well Barbarian is close but that is it). Wizards don't do a lot of damage though when played that way. It is the rest of us that really kill the enemy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8315415, member: 7030563"] I play them all the time, I have played with 8 different DMs in the past year, many of them on roll 20. I don't play stupid. I don't just walk up to the enemy and stand there and swing my sword. Even if you play stupid, protection fighting style is probably worth 2 points in constitution alone. More if you don't have any healing in your group. No he won't, not reliably against an intelligent foe that uses ready action, dodge, shove, cover etc. Even against a stupid played enemy such a Rogue would have to invest in combat-related ASIs and/or combat feats to keep up with the fighter that starts with a 16 S and invests in nothing. When you average it out, considering the fighters fighting style (if applicable), maneuvers (if any), extra attacks and the times Rogues are not getting SA, the Rogue will not keep up. An 11th level Rogue gets 6d6+1d8+5 when he gets SA, which is most of the time but not every turn. An 11th level fighter that invests nothing at all into combat can do 6d6+9 every single turn, he is already equal to SA with his always on ability. Plus he can do action surge, has a fighting style and maneuvers or runes or crits on a 19 or a host of other potential subclass abilities without investing in combat ASIs at all. He also has hps slightly better than a Rogue with 2 points higher in constitution and can get a full hit dice plus level back in combat once per short rest. He is simply better in combat than the Rogue even without dumping any ASIs into it. A decent ranged attack on a strength melee character is almost useless when you can just use a thrown weapon. You invest in what you want and let me build the character I want. This is your problem, your opinion of the fighter class is built around a stereotype. In one of my groups I play with regularly we have no problem convincing the Wizard to "run melee" as you put it. She is far better at avoiding hits and staying alive than I am, far better than the Paladin in the group and better than the barbarian and is better than a fighter would be even if optimized for this specifically. In a previous game the same player, playing a similar wizard character went multiple levels being the primary front liner without getting hit a single time in combat by an attack. Unlike me, her tactic was run to the front get right up to the enemies and don't move until he is dead. She was a bladesinger that could push her AC to about 30 while also imposing disadvantage. She pretty much never got hit. She had low hps as it was but she could have had just 1 hp and she still would have survived almost every combat that did not involve casters or breath weapons. How high do you need to pump constitution to make up in hps for a character that will go 25ish battles without getting hit by a single attack at all? You want to really play a character who is really optimized for taking attacks - play a wizard. Nothing else is close (well Barbarian is close but that is it). Wizards don't do a lot of damage though when played that way. It is the rest of us that really kill the enemy. [/QUOTE]
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