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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1001 fka bert1000" data-source="post: 8316761" data-attributes="member: 7029588">You are only a great martial leader because nothing else exists! People are saying that Battlemaster leader shouldn’t be the weakness of a martial leader. The peakness of a martial leader should and can be much more, and you need to get to those levels to model certain fictional concepts and stay reasonably balanced as a game construct. So, yes, once you raise the bar on leadership you no longer can be both elite warrior and elite leader for balance sake.I kinda get how this diminishes your concept, but since the current implementation of "elite martial leader" wasn't that great, I don't see it as a big loss to move that to average or good fictional leadership positioning. People don't get to have concepts where they are both elite warriors and elite spellcasters either. It's a design choice that opens up the Elite leadership/good fighting concept I guess at the expense of Elite leadership / Elite Warrior concept. But since the current Elite Leader concept implementation is pretty lame, we are just losing some relative status. You still have the Elite Fighter/good leader Battlemaster, which apparently a bunch of people are happy with anyway.So is this your actual objection, and you actually do understand the concept of leader first/Warlord prime or not? If so, this objection is something I kinda understand. If you still don't understand the concept of leader first, we probably just don't have enough common ground to have any real discussion.Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you and ECMO3 are still fighting the concept of leader first/Warlord Prime given you both seemed to have engaged with Undrave's Warlord homebrew in good faith. It may not be your thing and you may never use it but you seemed to get what he was trying to do? I haven't looked it over in detail, but Undrave's homebrew seems to be trying to create a leader first/Warlord Prime class that can't be recreated well using current other classes/subclasses. With its Shouts, etc. it seems like a character where you are a better leader than the Battlemaster in exchange for some fighting prowess.It's hard to see where you are actually coming from because half the time you seem to just not acknowledge the leader first concept (which basically means there is no conversation) and then sometimes you do, but you are worried about relative positioning of the Battlemaster leader or balance between casters and martials (which are more interesting things we can talk about once the Elite leader / good warrior concept is acknowledged).</blockquote>

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