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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8317484" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Surely though, having these abilities implies the existence of, y'know, other things that come with it? Hence all the examples I gave earlier, of being highly observant, creatively exploiting opportunities, enduring things one shouldn't be able to endure, etc.Like...you are demonstrating exactly the thinking that leads to Fighters getting shortchanged. It is not "let's give this a class," which often produces interesting and worthwhile mechanics (consider that the Bard and Paladin could have just been rolled into other classes, but instead they are both flavorful and very strong in 5e.) Instead, it's "but all they do is fight, so fighting is all they should get." Both parts of that principle are false; their prodigious skill manifests most clearly in fighting, but it is the skill that matters, not the fighting produced by it. And, as I've argued, it's just bad design to have classes that simply don't contribute to certain pillars of the game, if "pillar" is supposed to mean something important for play. Doubly so when it's...pretty much only Fighters (and to a lesser extent Barbarians) denied such; every other class, even some that have design that leaves things to be desired, actually participates SOMEWHAT in every pillar.Like...it's one thing to argue "every class should have at least one area they're incapable of contributing to, so they have to depend on others to do that." It's quite another to argue that 5e actually does that, because every caster class (without exception) can have tools to address all three pillars simultaneously. Those tools might not always be useful in absolutely all situations, but they definitely are useful for obvious and relatively common situations: fireball, invisibility, enhance ability, etc. And it only takes one or two spells per pillar to be really quite good at that pillar. And some of these are so generally-applicable (such as enhance ability) that having them pretty much guarantees having something Very Useful to do at any time....particularly when short rests are uncommon (avg about 1-2 a day, rather than 2-3 a day*) and long rests happen much more frequently than intended (about every 3-5 encounters, rather than every 6-8*), as the designers have explicitly said.It's reasonable to say "everyone should have something they're great at, something they're okay at, and something they're poor at." Even if I disagree with that concept at the level of entire pillars of the game, it's at least a cogent and reasonable position to take. It's not quite so reasonable to say that when most of the classes in the game don't follow that principle. Worse, when at least several of the game's classes have never consistently followed that principle in any official edition; for several classes, either they're at least pretty competent at the pillars overall but focused within each one (4e's method), or they only start out poor and become incredibly powerful (early-edition methods), or they're just good at anything they choose to be good at (3e's "method").If Fighters are supposed to be held to this standard, maybe we need to clean house for all of the other classes first, mm?*These are not absolute numbers, because I don't think the designers have given us any; they've just said that short rests are not happening as often as assumed by their designs, and long rests are happening more often than assumed by their designs, and--importantly--that these divergences are significant enough to negatively impact the intended play experience. But the statements they've made, and the data I've both seen collected and collected myself, thin as it is, loosely corroborate these numbers. Almost everyone who talks about it clearly says that 6-8 encounters a day is incredibly overlong, bordering on exhausting, and while I don't see too many saying that they skip out on short rests entirely all that often, taking three short rests during a day would be pretty unusual based on how people discuss it.</blockquote>

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