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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8318172" data-attributes="member: 6790260">That's...literally the opposite of what I said.I said, and I quote, that they would be choosing to give up that utility BECAUSE doing combat things would be more valuable. The assumed baseline here was (bare minimum) a spell per combat, for an extremely long day compared to how most people play, and STILL having three spells they can decide what to do with thereafter.And then you completely ignored all the parts where I showed, pretty clearly, that that "one spell per combat" thing can completely outclass the contribution from maneuvers. When you add in cantrips that are--exactly as the thread states--just as good as making attacks as a Fighter, what's left? The full-caster matches, beat for beat, all of the Fighter's supposed "always-on" benefits (besides AC and HP, which the Fighter isn't even the best at EITHER)....and then gets more benefits, so they can either choose to completely dominate fighting, or do cool and useful things elsewhere while still contributing as much if not more.And the gap only grows larger with levels; extra superiority dice only add a total of 6 extra maneuvers (2 per rest), meaning one extra maneuver per combat on average (6 combats a day, start of day +2 SR/day). Full casters easily get enough spell slots to blow two on every combat and STILL have some left over (at level 10, you have 15 spell slots as a full caster; more if you're a Wizard or Cleric). When a first-level spell from a first-level slot is superior to a maximum-scaling maneuver, your responses don't look like you're actually considering the value (and frequency) of spells nearly as highly as you should.Blowing an average of a three spells every two combats would leave a 10th-level full caster with 6 additional spells to work with--meaning they could cast a utility effect after each combat of the day. And that doesn't include rituals, either!We'll just have to agree to disagree on that front. Fifth-level spells still include contact other plane, dominate person, legend lore, modify memory, raise dead/reincarnate, and temporal shunt. Those are pretty reasonably high-magic effects--reshaping minds with magic, learning all there is to know about a topic, reviving the dead cleanly and simply, affecting time itself. Sure, it's not time stop or wish, but those are "magic has completely conquered all but the final, flimsy barriers of reality" level high magic."Low" magic looks at mere cantrips and says, "Uh, no. How about not that?"</blockquote>

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