Spellcasting Blues

[Trainz]

Man, I read you loud and clear.

The game (especially the monster's stats) ask of the players to optimize their spell selections quite often, especially the cleric. It becomes an exercise in rules knowledge to survive. This was true of previous editions, to a much lesser extent (a high-level character basically had a mind-blank up with a few permanencies at most). And with the advent of named bonuses, the complexity increases exponentially.

I don't know how much of a big deal it is, as I still quite enjoy the game, but I admit to feel a certain strain from the system. In order to challenge my players, I must take into account much more than previous editions of the game, and thus, my players, in order to survive the challenges, must quite carefully build their characters and choose their spells. It's a vicious circle with no end.

I don't know how much of a bad thing all that actually is, but I can't deny the strain is there.

During 3.0, we had house-ruled that no-one could benefit from more than 3 spells at any given time (a fighter could have bull strength, freedom of movement, and barkskin, and if the wizard cast invisibility on him, one of the 3 spells had to be dispelled or the invisibility wouldn't take effect). The same also went for the critters, and that made my job easier.

When 3.5 arrived and the stat buffs were reduced to 1 minute per level, we dropped that rule, but the problem is still there.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

My suggestion:
Simply get the wizard player to do the work for you. When he casts a spell, he hands you the rules for it.

Then HE spends his time looking up the rules, rather than you.

This was what we did, and it worked out pretty well.

I was the wizard player, and I had the same basic problem fourthmensch has: too many spells, too many options, too many things to keep track of. So I made a cheat sheet for myself, a spreadsheet that I put together listing all the spells my character knew, along with the important information like range and casting time and whether spell resistance applied and so on, plus the book and page number where the full description could be found. It made it possible for me to make better decisions about what spells to use, and it offloaded all the spell info responsibility to me, which made our GM pretty happy.


The downside of this is that it doesn't help a GM who needs to keep track of spells for NPCs, and the only advice I can offer for that is to do something similar; sit down before the game, figure out what spells you want them to be using and make a cheat sheet to remind you what those spells' parameters are. Don't bother trying to make the absolute best choice, don't bother trying to catalogue everything they could cast, just pick the spells that you feel like dealing with and have them rely on those. (There's a reason why NPC spellcasters I run tend to have similar spell arsenals, and usually avoid complicated crap like polymorphing. It's also one of the reasons why quickie-NPC-spellcaster-villains tend to be sorcerors rather than clerics: fewer choices means using them in a game is easier.)

It's still a headache, of course, because it means you have to prepare more in advance, and you can still count on forgetting to use a particular spell at the right time or failing to take into account a particular spell's effect properly. But it gets you closer to using spells quickly and well than just looking at a crappy stat block listing memorized spells with no page references or range or duration notes ever would.

(It also helps if you regard every NPC spellcaster as a corpse waiting to happen, so you stop caring about using them to the best of their abilities or being disappointed when the PCs slaughter them mercilessly. )

--
but that's true for all npc villains
ryan

 

[Trainz]

(There's a reason why NPC spellcasters I run tend to have similar spell arsenals, and usually avoid complicated crap like polymorphing. It's also one of the reasons why quickie-NPC-spellcaster-villains tend to be sorcerors rather than clerics: fewer choices means using them in a game is easier.)

Oh 100% with you on this one.

All my enemy NPC arcanists are Sorcerors. And they never have polymorphs or summoning. With the advent of Complete Divine and the Favored Soul, all my enemy divine casters are favored souls too.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the diverse spells of D&D are both a great strength and weakness.
The first roleplaying game I encountered was Shadowrun. The magic works extremely simplified in there - it was extremely easy to understand what a spell would do, and even with the advent of "Magic in the Shadows" there was no problem in knowing what a spell did.

When I played my first D&D character, I was extremely surprised by the strange spell lists - the spells description were incredibly long (compared to Shadowrun), and also very complicated.
But the spells were also much more diverse - they contained effects that were plainly impossible in Shadowrun, because it simply wouldn´t fit into the spelldesign and casting system. (I am not speaking of Teleport, which would be easy to adjucate, it just doesn`t fit into the world, but from spells like Augury, Meteorstorm or whatever else you might think of - or spells like Identify with a casting time below a fullround action...)

It is difficult to know all spell effects, even if you do only use the core rulebooks - but you can achieve many different and interesting effects, and I wouldn`t want to give it up. These effects are also those that make it difficult to create a "spell-construction"-system. It might work for Epic Levels (though I don`t think so and are extremely sceptical to the epic level rules), but for all spells, it is very difficult. There are to many different patterns .

The key to handling these things is preparation.
If you want to play a spellcaster, look the spells up you know. Keep in mind where you can find them. Maybe create your own spellbook with the spell descriptions (one of the players in our group did so). And don`t do this once. Do it everytime before you play.
If you want to play a character benefitting from all those buff spells, plan with the casters what spells you will get, and write down the effects. Preferably write down different combinations of spells cast at you, and don`t forget your own special abilities (Rage?)

If you want to run a game, you will have the same work. That`s a good reason to use standardcreatures and monsters, and reserve handcrafted NPCs to the important ones.
It`s a lot of work. If you think it is too much, you can attempt shortcuts like some present them here, but also remember: All these spells and effects can also help to create a fun and interesting game...

 

[Spatula]

http://www.geocities.com/toytools/dnd/

Download and print out the spell lists (at the bottom of the page). Presto, you can now instantly look up the mundane details of any spell at a moment's notice. Adjucating unusual uses of a spell will still probably force you to crack open your PHB, but at least there's a page reference.

 

[mythusmage]

You might consider Ars Magica from Atlas Games. The PDF is still a free download. Nifty little spell creation rules that shouldn't be that hard to convert to D&D.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Psionics.

I'm 100% serious. Psionic powers are more universal than magic spells, thanks, in part, to the augmentation system, that allows you to spend more PP to do different things with the power.

Failing that, try the similar Wheel of Time system -- basically, one spell fills 9 levels, and what level you cast it at determines what effects it has...spend a 9th level slot on a 'spell of killing things with fire' and you'll have a different effect than a 1st level slot in it, but it's still just one spell, one basic mechanic.

My rules are (1) "If you don't know what it does you can't use it." You can't tell me "I cast wish, what happens?" You need to know the specifics. And (2) "Use the sovellior/sage SRD". That thing has bookmarked the spells alphabetically, making looking up the spell as quick as making a few clicks. A lot of computer aids endeavor to do the same thing. Though I benefit from having a comp basically right at the gaming table.

 

[greywulf]

Good post!

I've made just two changes to the core mechanics and that's simplified the whole process a lot for me as GM.

Firstly, the save DC for spells is now 10 + caster level + attribute bonus - spell level. That means 1 st level INT 15 wizard casting a 1st level spell has a DC of 12; the same spell cast by a 20th level INT 18 wizard is DC 23; low level spells are suddenly useful again to high level critters against high level foes, so they get used a LOT more in the game, and these are the familiar 1st-3rd level spells we all know and love. The rationale is that these are the spells the magic user knows intimately; they should be much easier to cast and use than the 6th level spell he mastered only last week (which would be DC 18).

Secondly, to quote my House Rules (http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/War/HouseRules):

A character's spells are unique. All spells must have a unique signature (appearance, smell, sound, or other effect) that must be consistent for that character. Unique spell names are also encouraged. Tharn, a nature-loving Sorcerer, doesn't cast Magic Missile, for example, he casts Tharn's Thorns, which fires a volley of large thorns at a target. Idaya'ama the Dark Elven sorcerer doesn't cast Magic Missile, she throws Ice Shards - bolts of spontaneously created ice, which pierce then melt on impact. The game effects are identical, but each signature may have minor side effects which should be encouraged and handled in-game.

That means players have a vested interest in each of their spells - they are personal and unique to them, and they know the casting details intimately. It's their responsibility to refer to the spell details - though I keep track of the durations, etc - so I can expire spells just that bit early or late for Suitable Dramatic Effect (insert evil grin her

 

[Ourph]

Ourph, that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. A way to preserve the power and wonder of magic without the complexity of the current system (and endless minor variations of spells).

Trouble is, I'm pretty much where you are: Thinking, "Man, it would be awesome if someone came up with this. Because I sure as hell can't do it." Or something along those lines.

If you get a chance to take a look at it, I've heard the Savage Worlds game handles magic in this way and might be a good place to get ideas if you're interested in doing some conversion work.

I'm not that familiar with the ELH, though; do you think the spell seeds idea could be adapted to magic of all levels?

Yes, I think the idea of "spell seeds" is one with a lot of potential, both for use as a simplified magic system and as a tool for DMs/Players developing new spells of all levels in a traditional D&D magic system.

You can check out the epic spell development rules here