Spelljammer Spelljammer in D&D 5e Speculation: How Will the Setting Be Changed?

[doctorbadwolf]

No, the comparison is pretty exact: they exist in the same milieu in he same sense that they are both part of the D&D universe, sure, but that's the same as Birthright or Eberron. Mixing them is great, but for product design purposes they don't cover the same ground: an esoteric cold war between Heaven and Hell is something the Guardians of the Galaxy don't normally deal with, that's Doctor Strange's territory, but they can cross over in the Avengers just fine. Crossing the steams is easier if both separate elements are adequately treated.

That is exactly a thing that could be in a book of any cosmic hero. Not only that, Strange and Cap are both part of the same setting, much less Strange and Star Lord.

A Marvel Comics sourcebook that covers the very mystical part of the cosmic section of the Marvel story set, but not the spacefaring part, would be a weird decision.

The two are vastly more like two major pillars of a setting, than they are like two separate settings.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So are you saying major changes to either setting wouldn't upset some players, or that it doesn't matter if they are?

Neither, obviously.

Im saying what I said, as usual.

Now, if it’s just a lack of clarity, rather than a case of you assuming hidden implication where there is none, I’ll try to restate it.

Your post seemed to imply, as a premise, that change is a negative that can only be “worth it” if it is outweighed by some particular good. I disagree with that premise entirely.

As an additional statement, in a separate paragraph, I communicated that I see the change as mostly additive and positive.

Whether it will annoy some fans, and the degree to which that matters, isn’t even a subject I’ve spoken on, nor do I particularly care to.

 

[Parmandur]

That is exactly a thing that could be in a book of any cosmic hero. Not only that, Strange and Cap are both part of the same setting, much less Strange and Star Lord.

A Marvel Comics sourcebook that covers the very mystical part of the cosmic section of the Marvel story set, but not the spacefaring part, would be a weird decision.

The two are vastly more like two major pillars of a setting, than they are like two separate settings.

OK, on this analogy, I am talking not about a general "Marvel book": that's the DMG. Spelljammer is a "Marvel Space" setting (which h they call "Cosmic" in the comics), while Planescape is a "Marvel Magic" Doctor Strange setting. Are they in the same world? Yes, but so are Eberron and Dark Sun (per the DMG). But traveling into extraplanar alternate dimensions to fight with Demons is different than flying a rocket ship into space to fight oppressive alien empires. Literally different planes of reality.

Anyways, that my piece on "Planesjammer," which isn't happening at any rate. There will be seperate Spelljammer and planescape products, as is appropriate.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

OK, on this analogy, I am talking not about a general "Marvel book": that's the DMG. Spelljammer is a "Marvel Space" setting (which h they call "Cosmic" in the comics), while Planescape is a "Marvel Magic" Doctor Strange setting. Are they in the same world? Yes, but so are Eberron and Dark Sun (per the DMG). But traveling into extraplanar alternate dimensions to fight with Demons is different than flying a rocket ship into space to fight oppressive alien empires. Literally different planes of reality.

Considering they both involve moving between worlds, they’re much more like Sharn and Stormreach, or Sharn and the Bloodsails.

And Marvel Cosmic is exactly what it would be, and it would touch on the spaceship stuff, the multiverse and Cthulhu stuff, the gods stuff, and the stuff that weaves through it all.

Anyways, that my piece on "Planesjammer," which isn't happening at any rate. There will be seperate Spelljammer and planescape products, as is appropriate.

We’ll see. For all we know right now we won’t get a Planescape (as such) book at all, but instead will continue to get parts of Planescape in various books that deal with the cosmology and multiverse, and I am damn near certain that 5e Spelljammer won’t be contained to only the Prime Material. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see a decent amount of Planescape chocolate in the Spelljammer book’s peanut butter, especially Sigil.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Novelty for novelty's sake is a terrible reason to re-launch a legacy product with major changes. The people who liked the old settings will be upset, and the new players WotC is currently chasing probably won't know the difference, likely not having encountered the originals.

100% agreed. As much as I dislike it, I get making drastic changes and retcons to a continually published line like The Forgotten Realms because it's WotC making changes that they perceive, correctly or not, to be in keeping with the changing tastes of their expanding audience of a product said audience already knows.

But Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, etc. aren't like that. They're old lines that haven't received substantial support in decades, so the only reasons to support them at all are to satisfy the passionate creativity of an individual writer (unlikely in WotC's current state) or to appeal to people who loved those settings and hoping to expand that fanbase. You don't get that result by sapping all the flavor out the settings and making the people who you should want providing word-of-mouth excitement complaining about your product instead.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

100% agreed. As much as I dislike it, I get making drastic changes and retcons to a continually published line like The Forgotten Realms because it's WotC making changes that they perceive, correctly or not, to be in keeping with the changing tastes of their expanding audience of a product said audience already knows.

But Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, etc. aren't like that. They're old lines that haven't received substantial support in decades, so the only reasons to support them at all are to satisfy the passionate creativity of an individual writer (unlikely in WotC's current state) or to appeal to people who loved those settings and hoping to expand that fanbase. You don't get that result by sapping all the flavor out the settings and making the people who you should want providing word-of-mouth excitement complaining about your product instead.

Just a quick note: Dark Sun received substantial support less than 1 decade ago. It was really, really, good, too.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Anyway, I was thinking more about this today, and I think that what I expect to happen with Spelljammer is solidly based on the nature of 5e, and 5e settings, and how new books are approached for it.

First, I think it will be more broad in scope. What I mean by broader in scope is that you'll be able to go to places in other planes than the material, like the elemental planes, the astral sea, feywild, shadowfell, etc. There will be spelljammer docks in the City of Brass, and quite possibly around Sigil. Fey-space will be interesting, and Shadow-space will be truly dire. I wish I could hope for something like the Deadlights from the Todash Darkness of Stephen King, here, but it'll probably be more "Gloomwraught, in space!" Which is also rad.

Second, I think it will also be broader in tone. The focus may still be goofy space opera high adventure, but I think the goofiness will be a bit more....optional, easier to ignore, like a lot of the silly stuff in 5e. This change will be much less stark.

Third, "space" won't restrict the action as much, so I don't expect the space gas to make things explode nor the spelljammers to block spellcasting. Any rules widgets from old Spelljammer that many players saw as arbitrarily restrictive and frustrating, will likely be reduced to either flavor text or optional rules.

Lastly, I think it is a certainty that parts of Planescape will be in Spelljammer, just as they have been in the core books, and are largely the basis of the whole edition. Planescape is the default setting of 5e, and has been since day one. The Sword Coast has always just been the Sharn to Planescapes world of Eberron. It gets the most attention, but the wider "world" is the actual setting. Now, I don't know if this means there won't be a book that is somehow just a Planescape book, down the line, but I really doubt there will ever be a Planescape book that isn't also a more general multiversal book. If we ever get a book that focuses on worldbuilding advice and tools for the homebrew worlds that are the majority of dnd play, it will be in the book that is also about Planescape. But the Spelljammer book will effectively be a lot of newbs' introduction to Planescape, or at least to many of the core elements of Planescape we haven't seen yet.

I think we will know whether there will be a Planescape book based on whether Sigil is mentioned in the Spelljammer book, and if so how much space it takes up in the book.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Just a quick note: Dark Sun received substantial support less than 1 decade ago. It was really, really, good, too.

Fair enough on it getting support. I forgot about that since I mostly skipped out on 4E altogether. But looking at the changes listed in Wikipedia for the edition, I'll disagree with it being good. It looks like they did the same kind of homogenization they've been doing with everything lately.

 

[Parmandur]

Anyway, I was thinking more about this today, and I think that what I expect to happen with Spelljammer is solidly based on the nature of 5e, and 5e settings, and how new books are approached for it.

First, I think it will be more broad in scope. What I mean by broader in scope is that you'll be able to go to places in other planes than the material, like the elemental planes, the astral sea, feywild, shadowfell, etc. There will be spelljammer docks in the City of Brass, and quite possibly around Sigil. Fey-space will be interesting, and Shadow-space will be truly dire. I wish I could hope for something like the Deadlights from the Todash Darkness of Stephen King, here, but it'll probably be more "Gloomwraught, in space!" Which is also rad.

Second, I think it will also be broader in tone. The focus may still be goofy space opera high adventure, but I think the goofiness will be a bit more....optional, easier to ignore, like a lot of the silly stuff in 5e. This change will be much less stark.

Third, "space" won't restrict the action as much, so I don't expect the space gas to make things explode nor the spelljammers to block spellcasting. Any rules widgets from old Spelljammer that many players saw as arbitrarily restrictive and frustrating, will likely be reduced to either flavor text or optional rules.

Lastly, I think it is a certainty that parts of Planescape will be in Spelljammer, just as they have been in the core books, and are largely the basis of the whole edition. Planescape is the default setting of 5e, and has been since day one. The Sword Coast has always just been the Sharn to Planescapes world of Eberron. It gets the most attention, but the wider "world" is the actual setting. Now, I don't know if this means there won't be a book that is somehow just a Planescape book, down the line, but I really doubt there will ever be a Planescape book that isn't also a more general multiversal book. If we ever get a book that focuses on worldbuilding advice and tools for the homebrew worlds that are the majority of dnd play, it will be in the book that is also about Planescape. But the Spelljammer book will effectively be a lot of newbs' introduction to Planescape, or at least to many of the core elements of Planescape we haven't seen yet.

I think we will know whether there will be a Planescape book based on whether Sigil is mentioned in the Spelljammer book, and if so how much space it takes up in the book.

Well, we will see soon enough: I doubt most of thst will come to pass, based on how thr metasetting has been presented in the core book, supplements, and designer discussions the past 8 years.

 

[Deekin]

Fair enough on it getting support. I forgot about that since I mostly skipped out on 4E altogether. But looking at the changes listed in Wikipedia for the edition, I'll disagree with it being good. It looks like they did the same kind of homogenization they've been doing with everything lately.

They did it in a really good way, though. In a way that expands the setting, rather than compacting it to fit in an existing box.

The Feywild is added as "Lands Within the Wind", isolated pockets of wonder and life, which have mostly been destroyed. Those that haven't have hidden away from the world, as the Sorcery-Kings would love to get their hands on all the life-force inside.