Spelljammer...just wow

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Here's the problem with a capital P....after they sell off the ship (oh hey, for argument's sake, let's make it a caravel) and the helm (and hey, let's make it only a minor helm), our 4th level party is suddenly up to their teeth in gold.

Yep. Economics was a fatal Spelljammer flaw. Just ONE such encounter blows things to hell. And not just the economics that any other D&D campaign would expect. Consider...

If the party travels by spelljammer - there WILL be encounters with other ships. Eventually, one of those encounters will be a fight. If the PC's win the fight they get, at worst, a SECOND helm worth hundreds of thousands of GP from among the wreckage. At best they can take over the ship largely undamaged and they've either upgraded to the captured ship which is bigger/better, or they sell the lesser valued ship and helm and have the blockbusting cash to commission a vastly better vessel to simply be MADE FOR THEM. Bolt the helm on and they're off to repeat the endeavor.

And yet if they LOSE the fight - what happens? They are captured or left adrift in space. NO POSSIBLE MIDDLE GROUND. It's either/or. Rags or riches. AND THIS IS WITH EVERY SHIP BATTLE. The PC's MUST win, EVERY time or they lose it ALL.

My number two beef was how spelljamming ruined the chances of overland journeys and such...once the party had a helm and vessel, they could scoot all over the planet looooong before they would have otherwise had access to teleport spells and the like.

Yep. Overland travel became a thing of the past unless you first devise a means or a reason that the PC's would divest themselves of the advantage of flight. They must travel overland to be able to see and follow the clues and landmarks from the ground perspective. Their ship is damaged/stolen/impounded and they must hoof it. There is a creature or phenomenon that conveniently prevents approach by spelljammers. The journey begins with an undesired/unexpected teleportation to somewhere else. Or the journey isn't that far so that a convenient landing site is chosen and then there is a SHORT hike during which all the land encounters must be squeezed in (like a real sailing ship putting ashore for water and provisions and the shore party being attacked by natives and wild beasts within 100 yards of the beach.

And speaking of travelling, isn't it odd that many of the creatures from the montrous compendia for Spelljammer weren't big enough to force a spelljammer to rev down from spelljamming speed and therefore couldn't actually be used......and even if the party did try to stop to fight them, should the adventurers have elected to bolt, there's just no way that the creatures could even remotely keep up with a spelljammer at full speed, rendering many off-planet encounters almost a moot point?

This, however, is not correct.

When on board a moving spelljammer you have very limited means of an encounter occurring:
1 - the ship is moving slower than spelljamming speed and it's just a matter of what can catch up or keep up to the ship.
2 - the ship is moving at spelljamming speed and something very large or another spelljamming vessel comes within range forcing it OUT of spelljamming speed.
3 - The ship is at spelljamming speed and something NOT a ship, or not large, is nonetheless matching speed.
4 - the ship is moving at spelljamming speed and "runs over" whatever it is that it encounters. In this case the something is now within the air/gravity envelope of the ship along its FORWARD edge and moving at the same speed as the ship. It will be affected by the ships gravity just as everything else, but will otherwise remain moving at spelljamming speed WITH the ship until it leaves the air/gravity envelope to the REAR edge. It is then instantly left behind. If it tries to leave by the forward edge it will not succeed, simply remaining AT the edge as the ship continues to "run it down".

So, the vast majority of critter encounters aboard a spelljamming ship that is at speed will be their effective INSTANT appearance somewhere along the forward edge of the envelope. And the entire encounter MUST take place entirely within the envelope unless the ship does drop out of spelljamming speed.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

BTW, what's left of my old Spelljammer files:
http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/spelljammer/spelljam.htm

I loved Spelljammer. The general idea was just my cup of tea. It was one of the most well-received campaigns I've ever run. In fact, I think it was the first that my players actually extended compliments on it and for years after asked for more. But I was also continuously disappointed in it and critical of it. I wound up repeatedly saying that I'd LOVE to run Spelljammer again, but I wouldn't want to do so unless I could fix the problems I saw in it - and that was just too much work.

I probably would run it again (without all the work to try and fix it), but only with the active cooperation of the players to studiously avoid exploiting, or even showing the cracks and faults in the systems.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

(Eberron creator) Keith Baker famously said - I daresay boasted - he never played a Final Fantasy game; I have a lot of respect for Keith's passion and creativity, but, frankly, this always struck me as a bit like a space opera writer who prided himself on never having watched Star Wars.

It never struck me as a boast - but, more to the point, expecting Eberron to be like Final Fantasy is and always was a serious mistake. It wasn't supposed to be like that - there are similarities, sure, but for instance there are elementally-powered airships in Eberron because there are helium-filled airships in pulp stories from the original "flying ace" tales to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

That there are airships in Final Fantasy is a case of parallel evolution, not inspiration. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a fallacy for a good reason - and in any case, the similarities between Final Fantasy and Eberron are more superficial than anything else.

Eberron is the result of the revised Third Edition D&D ruleset taken to a fairly logical conclusion in terms of worldbuilding, modulated through pulp adventure, film noir, and the late Victorian-through-interwar period in which those genres flourished.

Final Fantasy isn't those things, and saying "But come on! Technomagic!" doesn't make it so. Eberron doesn't have clockwork, steam, or technomagic, anyway; it's not magically-enhanced technology, it's magic used in place of technology.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Wow. Just wow.


...and Yoink!

Muahahahaha! I've created a monster.

edit: I wanna play in that game.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Here's the problem with a capital P....after they sell off the ship (oh hey, for argument's sake, let's make it a caravel) and the helm (and hey, let's make it only a minor helm), our 4th level party is suddenly up to their teeth in gold.

Helms were DRASTICALLY overpriced, in my opinion. I ended up changing the base price. Then you had to 'attune' it to certain individuals and only those individuals could use it. This was usually all incorporated into the price of the ship in my campaigns with the result that the amount of money you got for selling the helm by itself wasnt quite as much as it used to be. Considering the amount of damage a ship would often take during battle (What do you mean that fireball weakened the structure??), they could often spend MORE money then they gain after they finish any ship repairs to both ships. No one's going to pay book value for a Nautiloid after you've put some holes in it and pumped a few fireballs through. Considering how many naval ships have scuttling devices in case of capture, ships were no longer an instant windfall of loot.

My number two beef was how spelljamming ruined the chances of overland journeys and such...once the party had a helm and vessel, they could scoot all over the planet looooong before they would have otherwise had access to teleport spells and the like.

They may lose out on the overland journey, but how is this much different from the journey through wildspace and the phlogiston? You're just replacing one type of scenery with another. You still have obstacles to face, wandering encounters to run into, and the chance of a sidetrek by the party if they encounter something interesting. They can even get lost if they miss a navigation landmark.

 

[Psion]

So I've been going through some Spelljammer books I bought as PDFs and bought through Ebay and been going through them and I just wondered to myself this:

This setting is pure awesome. Why didn't it do well?!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I believe that the reason Spelljammer failed was that it lacked one thing a setting really needs to capture people's imaginations: a strong central conflict to act as a central premise for the action. (There was one put in later, but that was too little, too late, and not central enough to the setting.)

Spelljammer was a sandbox that people could play in and do interesting and different things in. But once that playing is done, there's no deeper conflict to invest in.

 

[Ry]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I believe that the reason Spelljammer failed was that it lacked one thing a setting really needs to capture people's imaginations: a strong central conflict to act as a central premise for the action. (There was one put in later, but that was too little, too late, and not central enough to the setting.)

Spelljammer was a sandbox that people could play in and do interesting and different things in. But once that playing is done, there's no deeper conflict to invest in.

I think this is why I love the Astromundi cluster so much.

 

[The_Warlock]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I believe that the reason Spelljammer failed was that it lacked one thing a setting really needs to capture people's imaginations: a strong central conflict to act as a central premise for the action. (There was one put in later, but that was too little, too late, and not central enough to the setting.)

Spelljammer was a sandbox that people could play in and do interesting and different things in. But once that playing is done, there's no deeper conflict to invest in.

I can see the point, but never noticed it while using SJ. I just brought the conflicts from from the Core worlds I used, and the snippets suggested in SJ, into the sandbox, thus building grander castles. I actually didn't like when they started taking the mystery away with things like Secret of the Spelljammer and such, as it seemed to take away from the nature of the setting to let DM and players build, grow, and make epic (in a stellar/space opera kind of way) the conflicts they brought with them.

 

[Henry]

..At best they can take over the ship largely undamaged and they've either upgraded to the captured ship which is bigger/better, or they sell the lesser valued ship and helm and have the blockbusting cash to commission a vastly better vessel to simply be MADE FOR THEM. Bolt the helm on and they're off to repeat the endeavor.

And yet if they LOSE the fight - what happens? They are captured or left adrift in space. NO POSSIBLE MIDDLE GROUND. It's either/or. Rags or riches. AND THIS IS WITH EVERY SHIP BATTLE. The PC's MUST win, EVERY time or they lose it ALL.

It's funny, but the way my spelljamming battles always seemed to work out was that the PCs either took the enemy ship, but their ship was wrecked to the point of being of little value, or they wrecked the enemy ship to the point of little value. It became a bit of a running joke - almost every time they ran a combat, SOMEBODY's ship was going to be breaking into multiple pieces...

You would think this would be a problem in a piracy campaign, as well -- but it's probably because regular sailing ships aren't valued so highly in such a campaign as a Spelljamming ship is.

 

[TheYeti1775]

*snip*
Let's face it, 20-40 K gold pieces for a single encounter (just for the ship) and over 50K for helms was really one huge hunk of change for a group of adventurers to have (at most levels).

Now add in the fact of crew costs, ship maintanence, then the fact most adventuring parties in the 1E/2E days were huge. Weather it was with NPC's or Henchmen.

Crew Costs link off of Beyond the Moons.
http://www.miniworld.com/adnd/jammer.html

I have always enjoyed Spelljammer and I'm pleased to report that the upcoming Grand History of the Realms will make direct reference to Spelljammer and its various influences on the setting and its history.

-Brian R. James

Great, something else to add to my shopping list.

Originally Posted by Psion
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I believe that the reason Spelljammer failed was that it lacked one thing a setting really needs to capture people's imaginations: a strong central conflict to act as a central premise for the action. (There was one put in later, but that was too little, too late, and not central enough to the setting.)

Spelljammer was a sandbox that people could play in and do interesting and different things in. But once that playing is done, there's no deeper conflict to invest in.

I think this is why I love the Astromundi cluster so much.

Yup, it was a great Crystal Sphere. I yoinked many of its plots during 2E to bring into play in other homebrew spheres.

Helms were DRASTICALLY overpriced, in my opinion. I ended up changing the base price. Then you had to 'attune' it to certain individuals and only those individuals could use it. This was usually all incorporated into the price of the ship in my campaigns with the result that the amount of money you got for selling the helm by itself wasnt quite as much as it used to be. Considering the amount of damage a ship would often take during battle (What do you mean that fireball weakened the structure??), they could often spend MORE money then they gain after they finish any ship repairs to both ships. No one's going to pay book value for a Nautiloid after you've put some holes in it and pumped a few fireballs through. Considering how many naval ships have scuttling devices in case of capture, ships were no longer an instant windfall of loot.

I always thought they were overpriced as well. I always had various verisions of Helms, not just Major & Minor. It would actually work out well under 3E magic rules. Have the Helms set at certain SR's when not at Spelljamming Speed, no matter who was in control. Some had controling helms that allowed for a non-spellcaster to pilot them but at a very limited SR. Not every Pirate could afford ship mages and clerics ya know. Some helms couldn't even achieve Spelljamming Speed. I called them Planet Hoppers, they were only good for interplanetary travel and could never 'breach' the Crystal Sphere portals. Using that method would be a great way to set a pricing structure that could be maintained to keep the 'wealth' level maintainable.

I don't really know the old Spelljammer, but I liked it when it came back to D&D 3.x with the Lords of Madness web enhancement here. That nautiloid spelljammer ship looked way cool .

I thought it an excellent tribute to those remaining Spelljamming fans.

---------------
But I would like to note to all the 'Not in My Pure DnD' world. Remember Expedition to Barrier Peaks? The old S3 Module. Written by Gary Gygax himself.
Then all the FR folk, if you can accept Halurran Skyships, why can you accept a ship that can sail up higher?