Spellless bard - What to give instead?

[domino]

I'm wanting to play a bard sometime soon, but I'd rather not have the spellcasting, because it doesn't fit that well with the concept.

So, if we drop that, what would you give to balance it? There are a few ideas I'm thinking of. Skill points like a rogue, higher BAB, a stronger Fort save, or sneak attack or other rougy abilities.

Skills points seems a bit too little for trade.

Higher BAB would give him BAB like a fighter. That's a bit much, methinks.

What do you suggest?

 

[domino]

Another alternative I've come up with is a list of bonus feats, like the fighters, but with emphasis on the barding part. Skill feats, or bardic music feats.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Maybe take a look at Marshall auras. They complement the bard's abilities well, IMO.

AR

 

[Nifft]

I'm wanting to play a bard sometime soon, but I'd rather not have the spellcasting, because it doesn't fit that well with the concept.

[ ... ]

What do you suggest?

Suggestions are entirely dependant upon concept. What's your concept?



It's easy enough to make him a very different kind of magic -- one who's not into the flashy, whiz-bang spells -- using the existing spell casting rules. For example, consider this Bard4:

0: Detect Magic, Know Direction, Read Magic, Message, Light
1: Ventriloquism, Identify, Comprehend Languages
2: Suggestion, Whispering Winds

He knows a lot of stuff (read magic, identify, know direction, detect magic, comp. lang), and he's got some tricks with his voice (ventriloquism, suggestion, message, whispering winds).

He can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, but so can many Rogues (with UMD), so that's not exactly concept breaking.

-- N

 

[domino]

I'm trying for the face man type/minstrel/compulsive liar.

I'd go with rogue, if I didn't want to keep the music part. The actual casting just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[SALADIN THE JUST]

I'm trying for the face man type/minstrel/compulsive liar.

I'd go with rogue, if I didn't want to keep the music part. The actual casting just doesn't sit right with me.

I am in agreement with you regarding this aspect of the class Domino...I have yet to come up with anything I'd be happy to implement as a worthy replacement...so I'd be just as interested to see if anyone else out there has play tested or crafted something worth while...

 

[Nifft]

I'm trying for the face man type/minstrel/compulsive liar.

I'd go with rogue, if I didn't want to keep the music part. The actual casting just doesn't sit right with me.

I'd argue that the casting can be a great part of your concept -- especially Lullaby, Charm Person, Suggestion, and Glibness.

Just look at them as mechanical benefits you only get a few times per day, and forget that they're called "spells".

Or, ask your DM to take those spells (and other in-theme spells) and make them into class abilities.

-- N

 

[Michael Morris]

Play a rogue, trade sneak attack and uncanny dodge for bardic music, bardic lore and strong will saves. That should be balanced.

 

[the Jester]

In a low-magcic experiment I'm going to run soon, I took spells away from the bard and gave them the following changes:

Bard: A bard does not get spells. Instead, he gains a bonus feat at level 2, 4, 7, 10, 13 and 16. If the bard wishes, he may instead take a Wyrd. This feat may be chosen from the following list: Alertness, Animal Song**, Chant of Fortitude*, Encore**, Extra Music*, Force of Personality*, Green Ear*, Improved Initiative, Inspire Fear**, Ironskin Chant*, Jack Of All Trades*, Lasting Intimidation**, Lingering Song*, Linguist**, Masterful Performance**, Melody of the Free Mind**, Obscure Lore*, Powerful Voice**, Rally the Dying**, Rat-a-Tat**, Renowned Critic**, Sexy**, Skill Focus (bluff, diplomacy, listen, perform, sense motive), Soldiers’ March**, Song of the Masses**, Subsonics*, Tonguetwister**, True Tone**, Uncanny Dodge@, Virtuoso**, Versatile Performer*, Weapon Finesse.

*From Complete Adventurer. **From Cydra Player’s Guide. @As the rogue ability, requires Improved Initiative, base Ref save +4.

(A wyrd is like a combined fate/action point, sort of.)

All characters in the setting also gain an extra 2 skill points per level, but I don't know that that is necessary for a 'standard setting' spell-less bard; however, I lead towards giving them to them.

 

[domino]

Play a rogue, trade sneak attack and uncanny dodge for bardic music, bardic lore and strong will saves. That should be balanced.

Hmm. A good idea, and it would be balanced. Don't know how well it would fit the character. But I guess there's no character class that perfectly fits most concepts, you always get something that's a bit off.

I guess there's the problem of most DnD classes aren't designed as much with the social end in mind. Not to say it's all killing, but most of the special abilities and tricks are with that, or adventuring in mind, rather than politicing.