Spellless bard - What to give instead?

[domino]

In a low-magcic experiment I'm going to run soon, I took spells away from the bard and gave them the following changes:

All characters in the setting also gain an extra 2 skill points per level, but I don't know that that is necessary for a 'standard setting' spell-less bard; however, I lead towards giving them to them.

That's a good idea. Especially the extra skill points, which are always handy for characters. I'd need to find out the feats, but the rate at which they're given seems appropriate.

 

[the Jester]

That's a good idea. Especially the extra skill points, which are always handy for characters. I'd need to find out the feats, but the rate at which they're given seems appropriate.

I tried to essentially put the feats in roughly when the bard would be getting new spell levels, iirc.

 

[Stormborn]

For the short term I think the Rogue with Bard Music idea is your best bet. Although I also have used a Bard in a low magic world where he got Feats at each level he would have gotten a new spell (did a Ranger that way too) and it seems to be working OK.

Long term, I am working on a way for players to design their own class. Its a work in progress, but you can check it out here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=133781
and see what you think.

 

[domino]

Yeah, I did the crunching. And the bard's a bit off with that set up. Depending on the way you do the math, the bard works out to be something like 80+ points. But it's nowhere near 1.5 times as effective as the other characters in most situations. Especially not combat.

 

[Nifft]

I'd just like to add that I absolutely hate the idea of giving anyone besides a Fighter a bunch of bonus Feats. Multiclassing for 2-4 levels of Fighter isn't that big a deal for non-spellcasters. If you drop spellcasting from the Bard, he's got no reason to hate heavy armor & shields, so he benefits even more from 2-4 Ftr levels.

(IMC, Clerics get Light armor & shields, and that's it. You want a martial Cleric? Take one level of Fighter or Paladin.)

In the constructive department, I've got an Aristocrat core class here: http://fishnet.cx/~josh/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml
Some people are using it, and report that it's pretty balanced. If I were your DM, I'd let you trade good Fort saves and one of your 1st level Feats for Bardic Music.

-- N

 

[domino]

You raise a good point about the spell casting.

For me, I'd never play a bard in heavy armor, just because that's a stupid idea. And, were I the DM, I'd apply the armor check penalty to any instrument based perform check.

But I can see how you need to set things up for other players, who would try to do stupid things for the maximum mechanical benefit.

 

[RisnDevil]

Some time ago, a friend of mine (who really liked the Bard, but did not want to multi-class in PrC) made a Bard with no spellcasting, but then went through all the Bardic Music abilities gained from PrC, and gave those to the Bard at varying levels as well. To do this you also have to increase how often the Bard can use his Bardic Music though, as the spellcasting helps offset just how few uses you get (not counting feats to allow you to have more).

 

[Cheiromancer]

Higher BAB would give him BAB like a fighter. That's a bit much, methinks.

Maybe not. According to Upper Krust's deconstruction of class abilities, a bard is stronger than a fighter. These are the scores he gives them:

Bard: 114.91
Fighter: 110.21

If you drop the spells (-15), give the bard a good BAB (+5, +1.25 for an extra iterative attack), medium armor proficiency (+1) and boost the hit dice to d8 (+3.35) the resulting class will have a score of 110.51; about as strong as a fighter, but a little weaker than the standard bard.

Good skills, a warriorlike combat ability (short on feats, though) and bardic music; not a bad combination. Might be worth a closer look, if you can see it fitting into your character concept. (Being the party face doesn't mean being poor in combat- lots of paladins do it quite nicely).

 

[domino]

I don't want to be a complete incompetent in combat. But I just wonder if playing my instrument would cause problems with actually fighting at the same time. Thus, going heavier on the combat would be redundant, as I wouldn't be actually fighting most of the time.

Edit: Also, where could one find the deconstruction of class abilities you mentioned?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I don't want to be a complete incompetent in combat. But I just wonder if playing my instrument would cause problems with actually fighting at the same time. Thus, going heavier on the combat would be redundant, as I wouldn't be actually fighting most of the time.

Edit: Also, where could one find the deconstruction of class abilities you mentioned?

Try singing in combat or getting one of those things that holds the harmonica over you're mouth .