[SPELLS and MAGIC] Design Discussion

Fenris

Adventurer
I really like the idea of the opposed checks with the magic. Perhaps based on caster level plus attribute bonus. Maybe a feat could boost the skill in one school for the check.

And getting rid on spells that iminge on other classes is a great idea. Moving them to skill bonuses is great. Invisibility grants a +10 to Stealth, Knock a +5 to disable device, etc. It makes those multi-class characters and prestige classes suddenly very potent. Say the arcane trickster for the knock example.
 

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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
And getting rid on spells that iminge on other classes is a great idea. Moving them to skill bonuses is great. Invisibility grants a +10 to Stealth, Knock a +5 to disable device, etc. It makes those multi-class characters and prestige classes suddenly very potent. Say the arcane trickster for the knock example.

I think this change is pretty much a done deal.
 


BryonD

Hero
I think this change is pretty much a done deal.
As long as the spells still work as advertised, this is cool.
For example, I'm not as keen on the Invisibility example as some of the others.
Invisibility should make you invisible. A bonus to some stealth checks is obvious. But simply changing it to a bonus is off, and it amplifies the problems with merging hide and move silent. Not challenging Stealth as a skill. But when invis helps you be quiet, we have a problem.

Identify and Knock are very good examples.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
I'm not as keen on the Invisibility example as some of the others.

Invisibility should make you invisible. A bonus to some stealth checks is obvious. But simply changing it to a bonus is off, and it amplifies the problems with merging hide and move silent. Not challenging Stealth as a skill. But when invis helps you be quiet, we have a problem.

There is definitely some awkwardness involved in the Hide/MS and Listen/Spot merge.

Passive Perception checks help resolve this somewhat: If an invisible user gets a huge (+20 moving/+40 stationary) bonus to Stealth, he will be "immune" to most passive Perception scores. Unless he does something to warrant an active Perception check (open a door, pick up an object) then the observer doesn't have a chance to spot him.

But it's not impossible. He's got a potential +10 point head start on the observer (who is taking 10 for passive perception) but an observer with a 10 point Perception edge on the invisible wizard can spot him.

I see this as a feature, not a bug-- because it means that the invisible rogue has a meaningful edge on the invisible wizard.

What has really changed is not so much invisibility but rather creating a mechanical framework for passive perception.
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
There is definitely some awkwardness involved in the Hide/MS and Listen/Spot merge.

And nothing drives that home like the Halfling racial traits.
+2 Dex, +4 Stealth (small), +2 Stealth (racial) = +7 Stealth because you're a Halfling, which is +6 more than Elves and +3 more than Gnomes.
Add in Skill focus (+3), Class skill (+3), and you've got a character with Level + 13 + Base Dex for a Stealth modifier; that's a heck of a sneaky fellow. He doesn't even need invisibility most of the time.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's definitely something that's different and noteworthy.
 

BryonD

Hero
There is definitely some awkwardness involved in the Hide/MS and Listen/Spot merge.
...
I was on the side that wanted the skills to remain separate. But I've pretty much come around on that not because I changed my mind on the mechanics so much as I am forced to admit that so many characters always had the same number of ranks in both Hide and MS, that blending them ends up making no difference.

That said, I strongly think it is the DM's responsibility to keep the practical distinctions in mind. Hiding behind a tree at night and creeping across dried leaves are both Sneak vs. Perception checks now. But the DM should consider modifiers based on the interaction. According to a strict reading of TB the guy trying to quietly creep across the dry leaves gets vastly better at being quiet if he is invisible. Obviously, that is silly. In that case the Sneak vs. Perception check should have no modifier whatsoever resulting from the invisibility. Now, assuming the guard hears you, you are still invisible. He knows he heard something, but he probably doesn't know what. And another check is in order, and for this one the +20 bonus is appropriate.

I suppose the argument may be that two rolls defeats the purpose of merging the skills. But, to me, this circumstance needs the two rolls to provide a quality resolution. In some circumstances under old D&D there would be cases in which sneaking across a room would require both a hide and move silent in order to remain undetected. I'm fine with just using one master roll for those type scenarios. But this is different.

For hiding behind the tree, yeah the rogue is better than the wizard, but the +40 bonus makes the rogue's +55 not really meaningfully better than the wizard's +42 unless you have some really intense Spot checks coming. and that makes sense. You are standing still and invisible. This qualifies as hard to spot.

The bottom line is, just because you only have Sneak and Perception as skills, you don't get away from situations that demand Hide/Move Silently/Spot/Listen. You just use a simplified system for establishing the modifiers for the check.

Back on the real topic: Fenris said
Moving them to skill bonuses is great. Invisibility grants a +10 to Stealth,...
Maybe I'm reading to much into that. But taken literally he is saying Invisibility should "move" from where it is now, to a simple mechanical skill modifier. To that idea, I am strongly opposed. Invisibility should first and foremost make the target invisible. Adding in a clear guideline for modifying skills (Stealth) as appropriate makes total sense. But only as a supplement to the main rule.

If you just go with modifiers, then you get into silly situation that compare to 3.5 Darkness. You have a spell that doesn't do what it says. I honestly found Darkness to be a perfectly sound and defensible 2nd level spell. It just had the wrong name.

If you want a spell that gives a Stealth modifier, that sounds cool. Call it Rouge's Obscurement and stat it up.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Let me pose a problem to you, to get a bit of insight.

The party has access to a wizard with both fly and invisibility. They also have a rogue with really good Hide and Move Silently scores. Based on those resources, who is the best choice to sneak past the following guards:

a) a human guard

b) a dog

c) a hellhound

d) a dragon

e) a black pudding.

Phrase your answer in terms of d20 mechanics, RAW. I am interested in how you adjudicate this as a DM.
 

booboo

First Post
Maybe I'm reading to much into that. But taken literally he is saying Invisibility should "move" from where it is now, to a simple mechanical skill modifier. To that idea, I am strongly opposed. Invisibility should first and foremost make the target invisible. Adding in a clear guideline for modifying skills (Stealth) as appropriate makes total sense. But only as a supplement to the main rule.

doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
makes more sense to me than a save.
 

ValhallaGH

Explorer
The party has access to a wizard with both fly and invisibility. They also have a rogue with really good Hide and Move Silently scores. Based on those resources, who is the best choice to sneak past the following guards:
Should be the best choice:
a) a human guard
Rogue. He doesn't rely on magic effects, allowing him to avoid any Detect Magic alarms, enchantments, items, or anti-magic zones. This means he only has to worry about a human guard, one who almost certainly doesn't have the ability to catch the rogue as long as the rogue is patient (i.e. not taking movement penalties).
Wizard. Scent, in D&D, is extremely powerful and only defeated by distance or covering scents. The rogue can't beat that, without a great handle animal check (undefined) or a covering scent that would give away the fact that something was there, so this one goes to the wizard.
c) a hellhound
Wizard. Again, the scent. At least this time the Wizard's knowledge of the planes and magic may provide further assistance.
d) a dragon
Neither (Rogue). A sufficiently powerful dragon will have all sorts of wards up to detect magic and break enchantments; combined with the dragon's own amazing senses neither one has a worthwhile chance. Of the two, the Rogue is the least magic-dependent, giving him an edge but probably not enough of one.
e) a black pudding.
Neither (Wizard). The nature of Blindsight (of an undefined type) makes it impossible to sneak past without violating physics. The Wizard could pass by becoming ethereal, but that's unlisted.
Phrase your answer in terms of d20 mechanics, RAW. I am interested in how you adjudicate this as a DM.
Wizard, always the wizard. Invisibility does not allow a spot check at less than 30 feet, fly removes (most of) the need for Move Silently checks (I require them, usually at a +10 to +20 bonus, since flapping cloth can be a dead giveaway), and there are generally a couple other options to draw upon when needed. I'd prefer it to be a fairer split, but mobile Total Concealment and not touching a surface makes it danged difficult for anyone else to compete.
 

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