SimonMoon5
First Post
KarinsDad said:
1: M component
6: F component
Thus, 6 is way cheaper than 1 over time.
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Spells for Figurin' out what things do...
- Thread starter FCWesel
- Start date
1: M component
6: F component
Thus, 6 is way cheaper than 1 over time.
Coredump said:
Does it?
Must have missed that. I thought I saw a core game system with nearly a thousand magical items and eight item creation feats.
If a given DM wants to run a world where PCs produce more magical items than NPCs, that's his business.
But, it really makes no sense. In real life, if you had the skill to craft an item that is worth 10,000 or more times most mundane items in a matter of a few days, wouldn't you do it?
So, with these feats available, it makes sense that there would be thousands of spell casters with at least one item creation feat crafting at least a few magical items each over thousands of years in a world. From that, does it really make sense that it is difficult to determine what the items do? That makes item purchasing by PCs and NPCs alike, very difficult to do. And, it would create a Black Market of items that appear to be more powerful than they actually are because it is very difficult to determine exactly what they can do.
The fact is that it is easier to Raise someone from the dead than it is to divine the abilities of an item. It is easier to Teleport to the other side of the world than it is to divine the abilities of an item.
That is just plain ludicrous.
Items should not be especially protected from divination magic, but they are.
Effectively, all magical items have a built in Resistance to certain types of Divination spells.
Why?
Because some game designer thought it should be difficult to do so.
But, items are much easier to create than they are to divine.
It should be the opposite way around.
In fact, it makes no sense that gods would not give divine spell casters better ways to figure out what items they acquire do.
"I will allow you to protect yourself from the most harmful of death magic, but I won't give you the ability to discern what an item you acquire can do, hence, putting you at risk from said item".
Uh huh.
But, again, the game designers were not thinking along the lines of what makes sense for a deity to do, rather they were thinking along the lines of wanting to make it difficult.
I can use a 2nd level divination spell to see if a decision made now will be good or bad in the future, but it takes a 6th level divination spell and 8 to 16 hours of casting and recovering to divine the properties of something that is right in front of me.
Yeah, that makes sense.
. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, in my DMG, it has item availability determined by price and locale size.
It also has magic items under 3000 as commonly or was it readily available.
In most every wotc product i have seen where they detail anything larger than a group of huts, there is someone selling poitons or a resource to buy scrolls. They even went to the trouble of justifying a podunk with a potion shop in iirc RTTTOEE.
As for the loremaster, he has to be a MINIMUM of 5th level caster before becoming a loremaster, he then gets identify at 6th (11th level total) and AD at 10th (15th level total.)
If you look in the DMG, you will find stats for what level NPCs you have around town (for resources) based on the location. I do not have my book in front of me but for wizards the number is IIRC 1d6+ size modifier. So, for instance, of the towns with a bonus of +3, none would have a lore master of that power level. You would need to get into cities to have a chance iirc and even then its a slim chance.
In other words, in large cities, having one loremaster able to do the AD thing is the exception, not the norm.
Net result...
if you use all their commerce rules and NPC resource rules... you end up with a bustling market in items that there are not anywhere near adequate people able to identify their properties.
Coredump said:
Well, in my DMG, it has item availability determined by price and locale size.
It also has magic items under 3000 as commonly or was it readily available.
In most every wotc product i have seen where they detail anything larger than a group of huts, there is someone selling poitons or a resource to buy scrolls. They even went to the trouble of justifying a podunk with a potion shop in iirc RTTTOEE.
What class is a sage and at what level does he get an ability to determine the properties of magic items? is this a home brew class?Coredump said:
As for the loremaster, he has to be a MINIMUM of 5th level caster before becoming a loremaster, he then gets identify at 6th (11th level total) and AD at 10th (15th level total.)
If you look in the DMG, you will find stats for what level NPCs you have around town (for resources) based on the location. I do not have my book in front of me but for wizards the number is IIRC 1d6+ size modifier. So, for instance, of the towns with a bonus of +3, none would have a lore master of that power level. You would need to get into cities to have a chance iirc and even then its a slim chance.
In other words, in large cities, having one loremaster able to do the AD thing is the exception, not the norm.
Net result...
if you use all their commerce rules and NPC resource rules... you end up with a bustling market in items that there are not anywhere near adequate people able to identify their properties.
Coredump said:
Rel
Liquid Awesome
I agree with the sentiments expressed by KarinsDad.
The rules as written seem to only support one style of campaign. That being the style where there is a "dungeon" within convenient travel distance to a large city where there is someone high enough level to cast AD on even the lowliest of the magic items you find (Ring of Warmth, anybody). Otherwise, you wind up with a party of low level characters who say, "Well, we know this pile of stuff is magical, but none of it is a +1 'widget', so there is no way to figure out what it does. Too bad. Some of it might be useful against the foes we face."
We have house ruled that Identify tells you all the powers of an item in most cases. The DM tacitly reserves the right to withhold some of the info, especially in the case of more powerful items and make it only able to be determined through AD.
The rules as written seem to only support one style of campaign. That being the style where there is a "dungeon" within convenient travel distance to a large city where there is someone high enough level to cast AD on even the lowliest of the magic items you find (Ring of Warmth, anybody). Otherwise, you wind up with a party of low level characters who say, "Well, we know this pile of stuff is magical, but none of it is a +1 'widget', so there is no way to figure out what it does. Too bad. Some of it might be useful against the foes we face."
We have house ruled that Identify tells you all the powers of an item in most cases. The DM tacitly reserves the right to withhold some of the info, especially in the case of more powerful items and make it only able to be determined through AD.
Bravo, KarinsDad. You have eloquently cited the logical faults in the 'item identification' sacred cow.
Rather than repeat your points, I could offer some solutions that I used in my game.
Detect Magic determines all auras and strengths on a successful Spellcraft check (so smart PCs can deduce what the item does usually: a weak Evocation sword is invariably +1)
Identify determines all of the items' properties.
Analyse Dweomer has a casting time of one round and automatically determines all properties (it's still worthwhile, compared to having to spend 8 hours casting identify).
Finally, any non-unique item's properties can be determined with a Spellcraft + Detect Magic or Knowledge: Arcana check DC 30 (to either 'attune' oneself with the magics involved, or to simply know about that item).
Rather than repeat your points, I could offer some solutions that I used in my game.
Detect Magic determines all auras and strengths on a successful Spellcraft check (so smart PCs can deduce what the item does usually: a weak Evocation sword is invariably +1)
Identify determines all of the items' properties.
Analyse Dweomer has a casting time of one round and automatically determines all properties (it's still worthwhile, compared to having to spend 8 hours casting identify).
Finally, any non-unique item's properties can be determined with a Spellcraft + Detect Magic or Knowledge: Arcana check DC 30 (to either 'attune' oneself with the magics involved, or to simply know about that item).
FCWesel
First Post
Here's another "object identifying spell... It doesn't solve the AD thing, but it is a neat little spell, nonetheless. From Book of Eldritch Might 2:
OBJECT LORESIGHT
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
You learn something significant about an object you touch.
Go through this list, in order, and the first bit of lore you do
not know, you learn through this spell:
1. Age of object
2. Name of last creature to touch the object, if any
(other than you)
3. Race of last creature to touch the object, if any
(other than you)
4. Name of the object’s creator (a natural object, like a
rock, was created by nature)
5. Race of the object’s creator, if any
6. Object’s purpose
7. Material(s) that makes up the object
8. Location of the object’s creation
9. Name of the most recent owner of the object, if any
10. Magical ability of the object, if any (random if more
than one)
#10 would seem to do what AD does, in some way, though the rnadom factor could be a bummer.
OBJECT LORESIGHT
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
You learn something significant about an object you touch.
Go through this list, in order, and the first bit of lore you do
not know, you learn through this spell:
1. Age of object
2. Name of last creature to touch the object, if any
(other than you)
3. Race of last creature to touch the object, if any
(other than you)
4. Name of the object’s creator (a natural object, like a
rock, was created by nature)
5. Race of the object’s creator, if any
6. Object’s purpose
7. Material(s) that makes up the object
8. Location of the object’s creation
9. Name of the most recent owner of the object, if any
10. Magical ability of the object, if any (random if more
than one)
#10 would seem to do what AD does, in some way, though the rnadom factor could be a bummer.
S
shurai
Guest
First of all, I think most of you are missing something critical about the nature of most of the game worlds that we play in. Only a few people in every hundred can wield any kind of magic. Of those that can, very few are high enough level to create anything but potions, scrolls, and minor wondrous items, which are quite easy to figure out. The DMG has this information in the form of its Town Generator section, which has some remarkable clues to D&D demographics. This means that powerful magic items (any worth more than a few thousand gold) are extraordinarily rare.
You're all neglecting that there's more than Identify and Analyze Dweomer when it comes to identifying items. Scrolls, obviously, take Spellcraft. The DMG had provisos for identifying potions by taste and sampling. Rogues can figure out what magic items do through their skills. Bards and Wizards can use Knowledge (Arcana). Anybody with eyes can know that the sword you found is Flaming given that the evil necromancer was just using it on you!
Karinsdad, I think you might be getting melodramatic when you say "The fact is that it is easier to Raise someone from the dead than it is to divine the abilities of an item. It is easier to Teleport to the other side of the world than it is to divine the abilities of an item." Because most magic items, remember, only have one or two functions, and they can be discovered through Identify or other means. And we all know the inherent problems with Raise Dead and Teleport. A more honest way of putting it would be to say, "It is easier to raise someone from the dead or teleport across the world than it is to discover the properties of rare and powerful magic items." Which, in the balance, isn't nearly as bad.
Also, Analyze Dweomer works on any object or creature, not just just magic items used as PC equipment. This is way too powerful to be lower than 6th level.
The second-level spell Karinsdad mentioned, Augury only works for activities 1/2 hour into the future, and often will yield unmeaningful or dangerously incorrect results. Divinations are a tricky part of the game. Few of them work very well. Divinations in general don't provide the kind of information that you're asking for when you identify an item. Instead, most of them let your senses work at a distance or perceive that which wishes to remain hidden. With a very few exceptions, none of them grant knowledge that isn't mundane, that is to say, knowledge that you could get just by looking or listening in the right place if you could.
Magical energies in D&D are subtle and hard to figure out. Remember that Detect Magic itself requires a roll to get any information at all about the nature of the magic it detects. It could be argued that the magic in an item is the most subtle of all, since it is so difficult to make them (think of the xp cost and the description of the effort it takes in the DMG). In this context, it doesn't surprise me its hard to figure them out.
As to the deity not granting the ability to figure out a magic item while its handing out death and destruction instead, remember that D&D deities are not omniscient or all-powerful. If they're not handing out information, maybe it's because they don't have it to give out.
But, of course, it's your campaign with which to do what you will.
-S
You're all neglecting that there's more than Identify and Analyze Dweomer when it comes to identifying items. Scrolls, obviously, take Spellcraft. The DMG had provisos for identifying potions by taste and sampling. Rogues can figure out what magic items do through their skills. Bards and Wizards can use Knowledge (Arcana). Anybody with eyes can know that the sword you found is Flaming given that the evil necromancer was just using it on you!
Karinsdad, I think you might be getting melodramatic when you say "The fact is that it is easier to Raise someone from the dead than it is to divine the abilities of an item. It is easier to Teleport to the other side of the world than it is to divine the abilities of an item." Because most magic items, remember, only have one or two functions, and they can be discovered through Identify or other means. And we all know the inherent problems with Raise Dead and Teleport. A more honest way of putting it would be to say, "It is easier to raise someone from the dead or teleport across the world than it is to discover the properties of rare and powerful magic items." Which, in the balance, isn't nearly as bad.
Also, Analyze Dweomer works on any object or creature, not just just magic items used as PC equipment. This is way too powerful to be lower than 6th level.
The second-level spell Karinsdad mentioned, Augury only works for activities 1/2 hour into the future, and often will yield unmeaningful or dangerously incorrect results. Divinations are a tricky part of the game. Few of them work very well. Divinations in general don't provide the kind of information that you're asking for when you identify an item. Instead, most of them let your senses work at a distance or perceive that which wishes to remain hidden. With a very few exceptions, none of them grant knowledge that isn't mundane, that is to say, knowledge that you could get just by looking or listening in the right place if you could.
Magical energies in D&D are subtle and hard to figure out. Remember that Detect Magic itself requires a roll to get any information at all about the nature of the magic it detects. It could be argued that the magic in an item is the most subtle of all, since it is so difficult to make them (think of the xp cost and the description of the effort it takes in the DMG). In this context, it doesn't surprise me its hard to figure them out.
As to the deity not granting the ability to figure out a magic item while its handing out death and destruction instead, remember that D&D deities are not omniscient or all-powerful. If they're not handing out information, maybe it's because they don't have it to give out.
But, of course, it's your campaign with which to do what you will.
-S
FCWesel
First Post
Well, perhaps a "lesser/greater" thing might work.
Example:
Lesser Analysis
Level: wiz/sor 4
Components: V,S,MC
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Target: one object
Duration: 1 rd/level (D)
Per round one feature of an item is revealed. When all the item's properties are revealed the spell ends. In the case of cursed items GM should make secret caster level checks to detect the duplicity.
Spell does not work on people, greater objects (such as portals) and artifacts.
Uses a 300 GP pearl as per Identify
Analyze Dwemoer
As per spell but drop the caster level checks (unless it is a crused item, which the GM should roll for secretly) and drop the fortitude save ve exhaustion thing.
Just some thoughts
Example:
Lesser Analysis
Level: wiz/sor 4
Components: V,S,MC
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Target: one object
Duration: 1 rd/level (D)
Per round one feature of an item is revealed. When all the item's properties are revealed the spell ends. In the case of cursed items GM should make secret caster level checks to detect the duplicity.
Spell does not work on people, greater objects (such as portals) and artifacts.
Uses a 300 GP pearl as per Identify
Analyze Dwemoer
As per spell but drop the caster level checks (unless it is a crused item, which the GM should roll for secretly) and drop the fortitude save ve exhaustion thing.
Just some thoughts
