[spin-off] 3E is NOT "dumbed down."

[Silverthrone]

The 3e D&D rules and game in general is definitely dumbed down in my opinion. It owes much of it's mechanics to the badly done Diablo 2e series and the nearly as badly done Player's Options type books.

It stripped what was actually good about Player's Option, the ability to generate a totally customized race and almost classless rules system and tacked on the old class and level 2e style system to the general Player's Option mechanics.

It is almost totally linear in respect to advancement, and goes out of it’s way to hold the DM’s hand (And at times it seems, twist his arm.) through even the simplest of decision. Some of the subjects it gives advice on as if they were amazingly complex are the sort that, if you couldn’t understand the concept without all that explanation then you likely should not be playing D&D. It assumes the most straightforward and unimaginative actions on the part of DMs and PCs, and assumes, it seems, in many places that the people playing will do the most inane and stupid of things in a given situation. I suppose if it was indeed aimed at today’s youth, it at least got something right.

The system is a true laugh as a multi-genre rules system. Several systems come to mind that stomp the proverbial crap out of it at that role. The so called D20 system is nothing more than a simplified version of the same rules set D&D has used for years, and it is no more multi-genre supportive now than it was then. It resurrected the dinosaur of class and level rules sets and it is a shame it did, as now sets that are truly multi-genre supportive like Fuzion or GURPS that could have enjoyed a boost as 2e left the scene have now taken back seat in the mainstream once more to an outdated rules concept. I suppose they are better off for it though, at least they are not being dragged into the mire of catering to generation duh.


The D&D game can be fun, it can even make for some entertaining role playing, but I truly feel sorry for the people whose only exposure to role playing is through it, for they do not know how a good multi-genre rules system can be. I hope those people eventually out grow their D&D phase and check out games like Fuzion, GURPS, Blood of Heroes, World of Darkness, or BESM.

 

[Kesh]

re: Battlemats

I find that it varies, depending on the situation. For instance, in my first session as a DM, we had two combats.

The first was outside of a ruined keep, with a crumbling wall surrounding it. Since the position of the characters was important (they were ambushed by giant rats), I had a rough map drawn up on the fly when the attack began. We used that for the rest of the battle.

Later, they entered a room and were attacked by skeletons. In this combat, all I needed to know was, "who is standing in the doorway, and who is inside the room?" Beyond that, it was purely descriptive and all in the head.

Which actually lead to one of the most fun combats I've seen. One of the players had his character flip a table up and slam a skeleton into a wall, then drop the skellie to the floor. He proceeded to topple the table on the skeleton and hop up and down on it, until I ruled the skeleton smashed.

 

[Numion]

I've never used battlemaps in D&D 3e. Or any other game for that matter. AoO's are handed out by the DM, and usually players don't object. Sometimes in a tricky situation I ask players to point out on the map where their characters are, but not usually.

It's worked this far.

 

[sunbeam60]

Same here. You don't need the mat.
... SNIP ...
The mat is great for big honkin' battles where everybody's gotta take their own role and so on, but it's by no means necessary.

Hmm, I guess it comes from the fact that we basically played with our own combat rules under 2nd ed. and to relieve a lot of the pain, we used battlemats (we designed the system for such).

When 3rd came out, I was all like "Well, great, basically what we have been doing for the last 5 years anyway. That makes it easy to come up to speed" and I just didn't consider the possibility of the system being so easy that mats weren't necesary.

Maybe I should give it a try

regards
Toft

 

[sunbeam60]

... SNIP ...
First, it slows the game down as the DM tried to get everyone to see the same vision of the situation that he does. Second, it tend to make the players want to get away with more. Your group may be different, this has just been my experience.
... SNIP ...

That's exactly the reason we started using them under 2nd ed. I was so incredibly tired of...

DM: So the troll slashes at you
Player: WHAT! I'm nowhere near that freak
DM: Yeah you are! I told you he moved closer to you last round.
Player: Yeah, closer to the barrels you said, but *I* left them, like, hours ago.
DM: Well the point was that he wanted to attack you, *not* the freakin barrels. Besides "telling" me involves more than mumbling through your potato chips.
Player: WHATEVER! He attacks me, I get it [mumbles through potato chips: You god d*** idiot, this is the last time you see me at this table]

Battlemats just seemed ideal, both for the "picture" and for the "I'm not there" problems.

Still want to give it a try under 3rd ed. The rules truly have been simplified, but so many feats seem related to the square next to the PC. I dunno... :

regards
Toft

 

[sunbeam60]

The D&D game can be fun, it can even make for some entertaining role playing, but I truly feel sorry for the people whose only exposure to role playing is through it, for they do not know how a good multi-genre rules system can be. I hope those people eventually out grow their D&D phase and check out games like Fuzion, GURPS, Blood of Heroes, World of Darkness, or BESM.

Checked out Fuzion and GURPS and I don't find their multiclassing system any easier. Not to start a discussion (no advocacy needed on a d20 board), but just felt obliged to tell you that, at least IMHO, D&D isn't a phase for most. It's a choice.

Anyways...

regards
Toft

 

[Wormwood]

. . . at least IMHO, D&D isn't a phase for most. It's a choice.

And for some of us, it's a destination.

25 years of my gaming life: From 1e to Star Frontiers to Traveller to Twilight 2k to 2e to CoC to WW to Gurps to Shadowrun to Amber to 3e to a baker's dozen of small press crap to Exalted to WW:Rev and then right back to 3e. Oh, and having real fun for the first time in years. Dumb me down some more, please.

 

[Storm Raven]

3E is more complicated in regards to feat selection and keeping track of monster and NPC feats during a fight. Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of feats to customize a character, but they can be a pain to keep track of. Also, it irks me a little than 95% of all the feats out there are combat oriented. Why are there no "official" non-combat feats?

No official non-combat feats? Did you your copy of the PHB leave out Alertness, Track, Run, Endurance, Craft Ring, Craft Wonderous Item, Skill Focus, and Brew Potion? This list doesn't even begin to consider the many non-combat uses of most of the metamagic feats. There are many non-combat feats in the PHB. And many more in supplements like FRCS and S&S.

 

[diaglo]

The only thing I've seen "dumbed-down" are some of the comments from people on messageboards.

they were bulletin boards back in 1ed.

progressed to USENET or newsgroups.

and now 3ed ENWorld.

 

[maddman75]

Well, I definately differ from your opinion.

The 3e D&D rules and game in general is definitely dumbed down in my opinion. It owes much of it's mechanics to the badly done Diablo 2e series and the nearly as badly done Player's Options type books.

You are going to have to be more specific. I see little similarity between Diablo and 3e, except in the most general sense.

It stripped what was actually good about Player's Option, the ability to generate a totally customized race and almost classless rules system and tacked on the old class and level 2e style system to the general Player's Option mechanics.

Player's Option was an abomination. It was horribly unbalanced and I can't imagine it even being playtested. It made the PCs 3-4 times as powerful with no corresponding increase in monster power. You seem to be under the impression that "classless == good" and that simply isn't true. Its a matter of taste, and personally I find classless systems boring. In every one I've played, characters tend to have a sameness about them.

It is almost totally linear in respect to advancement, and goes out of it’s way to hold the DM’s hand (And at times it seems, twist his arm.) through even the simplest of decision. Some of the subjects it gives advice on as if they were amazingly complex are the sort that, if you couldn’t understand the concept without all that explanation then you likely should not be playing D&D. It assumes the most straightforward and unimaginative actions on the part of DMs and PCs, and assumes, it seems, in many places that the people playing will do the most inane and stupid of things in a given situation. I suppose if it was indeed aimed at today’s youth, it at least got something right.

I'm sorry, but this is incredibly arrogant. Did it ever occur to you that some new players might be just starting the game? Certainly I don't need all the DMing advice in the 3e players handbook, but I don't begrudge that it's there. Much more useful and well written than the 2e DMG IMHO.

The system is a true laugh as a multi-genre rules system. Several systems come to mind that stomp the proverbial crap out of it at that role. The so called D20 system is nothing more than a simplified version of the same rules set D&D has used for years, and it is no more multi-genre supportive now than it was then.

You're right. There's no way d20 could support fantasy, superheroes, modern, science fiction, and horror. Wait - D&D, SASd20, d20Modern, Spycraft, T20, CoC - Oh, I guess you're wrong.

It resurrected the dinosaur of class and level rules sets and it is a shame it did, as now sets that are truly multi-genre supportive like Fuzion or GURPS that could have enjoyed a boost as 2e left the scene have now taken back seat in the mainstream once more to an outdated rules concept. I suppose they are better off for it though, at least they are not being dragged into the mire of catering to generation duh.

Again - Some people LIKE class based systems. Just because something isn't to your taste doesn't mean that it is 'dumbed down'.

The D&D game can be fun, it can even make for some entertaining role playing, but I truly feel sorry for the people whose only exposure to role playing is through it, for they do not know how a good multi-genre rules system can be. I hope those people eventually out grow their D&D phase and check out games like Fuzion, GURPS, Blood of Heroes, World of Darkness, or BESM.

D&D isn't a'phase'. D&D players are not somehow inferior to people who play other games. As the good Col. said recently, this is just coming down to geeks calling geeks geeks. Get off your high horse. D&D isn't the short bus, its the express train through downtown that most people take.

Oh, and I don't consider WoD to be a classless system. Just because you call them 'clans' or 'tribes' it doesn't change what they are .

But as long as you're roleplaying it doesn't matter. Different types of gamers, and different types of games. Elitism will only hurt and furthur segment the hobby.