[SPOILER] Paladin preblem in the Sunless Citadel

[Irda Ranger]

I am reading the Sunless Citadel is preparation for running the Adventure Path series. Looking at the threads and story hours on this board, while also looking at the adventure itself, led me to a startling realization.

Paladins are screwed.

A lot of the story hours infer that the only believable way to get through this adventure (for a 1st level party) is to make a deal with the Kobolds, specifically Meepo. The quest seems to assume the PCs should try this, since they get huge Diplomacy bonuses with the Kobold queen if they have Meepo with them.

Paladins cannot have evil associates. They cannot deal with evil creatures, and since they can Detect Evil at will, they can't use the "I didn't know he was bad" excuse. Clearly bargaining is not the only way through this, but it seems like it is the one that the adventure assumes. Equally so Gnomes, who hate Kobolds on sight and vice versa, would have a very hard time with this.

I guess that's the price you pay for using a pre-written adventure?

 

[Kamard]

Make the kobolds effectively neutral, but ruthless. Problem solved. *shrugs*

Its the goblins whot are evil. Your paladin can hack them to bits.

 

[Victim]

Our group hacked the kobolds to bits. You can easily go through adventure by attacking the Kobolds too.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Well, I guess either one of those options would settle it

Thanks to you both.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nonsense. Paladins can deal with evil creatures. Show my paladin an evil creature in the alley and he'll deal with it ;D

On a more serious note, I think that the "associate with evil creatures" restriction ought to be interpreted with the following implied modifiers:
-by choice
-as trusted comrades

A paladin who found himself in the prisons of the Vecna along with a priest of Hextor wouldn't lose his paladinhood because they were cellmates. I would even go further and say that it wouldn't violate his code if they collaborated on a plan to escape. Although, after the escape, they would probably part ways with some exchange like this "Well, we seem to have escaped. You held up your end of the bargain and I held up mine. Now we go our separate ways. Should we meet again, expect no indulgence of your evil practices, however, should you choose to renounce your dark path, I shall make a place for you in my castle."

Similarly, a paladin must associate with evil men and women all the time in daily life. If the paladin is a judge or is empowered to dispense justice, he will probably meet several evil people each day and may even be obliged to declare some of them innocent of the crimes they're accused of (just because someone's evil doesn't necessarily mean that they're guilty). He would not lose his paladinhood for such associations.

Nor would he necessarily lose his paladinhood for negotiating with the kobolds in The Sunless Citadel.

 

[Terraism]

I'd assume that there are occassions when a paladin can associate with evil creatures - there would have to be. Assuming typical nobility in most campaigns, there are likely a fair number of evil aristocrats. Not "drown puppies" evil, but still evil - and, with paladins being lawful, there are occassions when they must associate with them. A court ball, for instance, at the behest of the king - while the paladin sits next to a LE duke. He can't kill him, and he can't politely ignore him, all things considered. This leads to a forced association.

That said, I'd just say that it's a slightly ridiculous roleplaying restriction on the paladin. It's impossible to have nothing to do - aside from combat - with evil individuals. Life throws you in with all kinds of people. What if working with an evil individual serves the greater good? Take a NE banker, who's neutral evil because he really likes money, and doesn't really have any qualms about cheating people to get it. The paladin needs money desperately for some reason - let's say having that money will save lives - and the banker will loan it to him. There's no one else who can, and the paladin is forced to accept. Though the banker is evil, it is, I'd expect, more important to allow a lesser evil - extreme greed - to be tolerated in the face of something more pressing.

Moving on, it's possible to suggest that there's no greater good being served by accepting the kobold's aid in the Citadel, but that depends completely on the paladin's purpose for being there. If he's not serving the greater good by clearing out the place, why is he there? (I've got a large problem with paladins that just wander around with no goals. There really shouldn't - one expects - be many of them, and they're too valuable to waste their talents.)

As for the gnomes, they might instinctively hate kobolds, but that doesn't mean they can't work with them. Truthfully - and it doesn't do me much credit - there's an individual I've had to work with in the past who I truly hated (we're not going into why; it has no bearing and this isn't the place for it,) but, regardless of that, I had to deal with him. That's how life is. If you suggest that you have to kill someone you hate, then your methods of handling things may be a little skewed.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

I heavily modified Sunless Citadel for my own campaign - using the maps and some of the interesting elements of the backstory, including the fact that there were a bunch of kobolds at war with a bunch of goblins who had stolen their pet dragon. I made Meepo a Neutral 1st level bard who aspired to lead the kobolds, and who would use the PCs to obtain his objective. Changing Meepo's alignment is the easiest solution to your problem. Also (and this is said fairly often on these boards in relation to paladins), don't confuse Lawful Good with Lawful Stupid. The previous poster's illustration of a paladin coming to an accommodation with an evil NPC so that they could both live and the paladin could fight evil another day is apposite.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[D-rock]

Most of hte time I would let a paladin do things that he normally wouldn't want to do if it was in the cause of the greater good, and the lesser of two evils.

 

[Ratenef]

Slightly Off Topic

Speaking of the adventure path and some stupid 'expectations'......

Try Forge of Fury (module 2), there is a spot in the module where the only way to survive (other than luck) at the module PC level is to PARLAY with a roper!?

Who on earth parlay's with a roper!!!

Anyhowser, the whole party got slaughtered there!!!

That event alone made me really have an issue with the whole Adventure Path series.

 

[Kweezil]

Re: Slightly Off Topic

Speaking of the adventure path and some stupid 'expectations'......

Try Forge of Fury (module 2), there is a spot in the module where the only way to survive (other than luck) at the module PC level is to PARLAY with a roper!?

You know, you can just avoid the roper entirely. That's kind of the point, not everything in a dungeon can be beaten by the PCs. IMHO, that's a good lesson for players to learn.