spontaneous mystic theurge?

[Ferrix]

suggestion: develop one, play it, find out.

 

[Khaalis]

Requirements:
- Ability to spontaneously cast both 2nd-level divine and 2nd-level arcane spells (translation: entry requirement is level 9).
- Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks (translation: you spend 16 out of your 22+(int bonus*11) skill points on these two skills).
- Feat: maybe Skill focus in either Spellcraft or Knowledge (Religion).... any others that would be apporpriate?
- Patron diety's portfolio includes magic (this works out to an alignment restriction as well, given the favored soul's 1-step alignment restriction, but restricts the choice of diety more than the favored soul class)

HD: d6 (drop by 1 from favored soul and battle sorcerer)?
BAB: as cleric (same)
Saves: as wizard (drop by 2 from favored soul; same as battle sorcerer)

I'm thinking of restricting all metamagic feats from this character -- i.e., if the character knows any metamagic feats, they've focused too much on manipulating either divine or arcane energy, and are not as open to learning to channel/cast the other type of magic. So, "must not know any metamagic feats" would be an entry requirement, and "can not learn any metamagic feats" would be a class restriction.

Another thing to consider: while this may look overpowered compared to an arcane-based prestige class, take a look at the divine-based prestige classes: d8s, cleric BAB, two good saves, special ability and spellcasting every level.
Comparing this to a cleric-based prestige class, you drop a hit die level, a good save, and all the per-level special abilities in exchange for sorcerer spells.

Ok, if you are going to create the Spontaneous Theurge, here are my humble comments.

"- Ability to spontaneously cast both 2nd-level divine and 2nd-level arcane spells (translation: entry requirement is level 9).
- Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks"

These are fine.

"- Feat: maybe Skill focus in either Spellcraft or Knowledge (Religion).... any others that would be apporpriate?"

Magical Aptitude might be a good one for flavor if not mechanics. You also have to decide how many of their available feats you want to eat up in requirements. At best, a human is going to have only 4 feats before 9th level (and a 5th at 9th).

"- Patron diety's portfolio includes magic (this works out to an alignment restriction as well, given the favored soul's 1-step alignment restriction, but restricts the choice of diety more than the favored soul class)"

I dont think this is needed or all that appropriate. There are many deities that would/could support a Theurge but that arent the "gods/goddesses" of magic. I would stick to the one step alignment restriction, though that is only going to fit certain campaign types. Some use classes such as the Mystic (Dragonlance) which are more like PHB Clerics in that they dont have to have a deity.


"- HD: d6
-BAB: as cleric (same)
-Saves: as wizard (drop by 2 from favored soul; same as battle sorcerer)"

These are good.

"I'm thinking of restricting all metamagic feats from this character -- i.e., if the character knows any metamagic feats, they've focused too much on manipulating either divine or arcane energy, and are not as open to learning to channel/cast the other type of magic. So, "must not know any metamagic feats" would be an entry requirement, and "can not learn any metamagic feats" would be a class restriction."

I wouldnt go this route. Metamagic is too important a game feature to remove it. What I would do since you are using the Unearthed Arcana is to say that all Metamagic feats known become Spontaneous Metamagic. This is a boon and a curse. Though it removes the higher spell level cost, it severely limits the uses per day - which is a major thing for this class. They are going to already have an abundance of spell slots so slot costs for metamagic wont mean as much, but limited uses per day is the balancing factor.

Overall, your idea of the class is not broken in its design. The problem is that concept in-and-of-itself is broken. The Battle Sorcerer is already an arcane cleric with its D8 HD, Cleric BAB, Light Armor with no AF, better weapons, etc. Combining it with a spontaneous cleric and allowing them to both gain spell levels equally is where it starts to break down. However, overall, you end up (roughly off my head - no books) with the following at 18th level (assuming 4th Favored, 4th Battle Sorcerer and leaving 2 levels up to the PC):

HD: 8d8 + 10d6 (74hp) + CON
BAB: +13/+8/+3
Saves: F8 / R8 / W15
Divine Caster: 14th Favored Soul (7th level spells)
Arcane Caster: 14th Battle Sorcerer (7th level spells)

Overall the loss of 8th and 9th level spells balances the increased BAB & HD. I think it works.

PS: The link in your Sig doesnt work anymore...

 

[Liquidsabre]

The mystic theurge pretty much presumes you have cleric levels and wizard levels (the quote is "simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards"). The divine caster class has d8s for hit dice, the cleric BAB, and two good saves. The arcane caster class has d4s for hit dice, the wizard BAB, and one good save. The mystic theurge gets d4s for hit dice and the wizard BAB, and only one good save. Your HD, BAB, and saves are those of the arcane class. From one viewpoint, you trade the feats (if any) and the familiar for divine spells.

Both the favored soul and the battle sorcerer are spontaneous casters. They both get d8s for hit dice and the cleric BAB. The favored soul gets three good saves; the battle sorcerer gets one. Comparing the mystic theurge to the arcane precursor of this combination, you lose not only the familiar to get the divine spells, but you also cut the hit points in *half* -- *and* your BAB goes down. This combination loses a lot more to get the same benefit.

The text in the mystic theurge indicates that it is a very bookish class:
- they "draw power from...musty tomes"
- they are "obsessed with magical lore"
- they are "always on the hunt for...new arcane spells"
All of these indicate a studied mastery of magic, completely in line with a d4, wizard BAB, and wizard save bonuses.

Sounds more like you're looking to make a Battle Theurge PrC of some kind here. Taking the Mystic Theurge alone however still yields a TON of spells if both arcane and divine are spontaneous. Phew, dunno why anyone would even want to do this, the character would be practically unplayable, seeing as they would be so far behind the spell power curve here (too few high level spells) but what a great source for the small village on the outskirts of civilization. You could heal lots and even provide some useful arcane protection for those nasty Ol' goblins. Dunno about adventuring though...

 

[Scion]

The argument that later possible entry in a prestige class should allow greater benefits is not a very good one, even if it is presented in some core book.

It is a fine arguement, and more or less correct.

As you get higher in levels then the requirements can be greater, and the bonuses should be higher because of that cost.

For the one I said the requirements were so high that the first level it could be taken was 13, and that character is so far behind the power curve that they might just suicide before then because of it

So, because of that huge sacrifice, they get a lot of beanies quickly. This winds up making them pretty much even with everyone else in overall 'power' (defined by usefulness and ability, people have different levels of what they believe is power however, and that will create kinks, but no more so than any other class).

In the end then, with proper prereq's the class can, and should, be more powerful than a normal class/prc. Because of the very cost it took to get there.

Comparing it to prc's that were not made properly however is a bad plan. The general guidelines are good, implementaion is not always so much. It takes a careful hand, but that does not mean that you should always fall to the too weak side. It is ok to give out power when the power is deserved.

(oh, and as for 'some core book', it would be the dmg where it talks about making prcs)

 

[the Jester]

If there's one thing I've learned from looking over assorted prestige classes, it's that they are *not* balanced -- either against each other or against the core classes.

Just because there are unbalanced prestige classes out there doesn't mean you should write one.

Magic-based prestige classes (whether arcane or divine) typically have +1 caster level *and* a special ability for *every* level. That's definitely more powerful than the base class. The Loremaster and the Red Wizard are both examples of that -- at a couple of levels, the Red Wizard gets *two* specials in addition to the spells.

Unfortunately true, and not good examples of balanced prestige classes. For those, you need to look at stuff like the alienist or planeshifter. Alienist gets full spell progression and neat bonuses, but also gets phobias and drawbacks. Planeshifter get neat bennies, but loses a few caster levels.

So consider:
Requirements:
- Ability to spontaneously cast both 2nd-level divine and 2nd-level arcane spells (translation: entry requirement is level 9).

Hmm... are you sure? What about other spontaneous casting classes? There are lots of 'em, if you allow the right books- Oriental Adventures has a number of them.

Nonetheless, a level nine entry req. is pretty high. Good start.

- Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks (translation: you spend 16 out of your 22+(int bonus*11) skill points on these two skills).
- Feat: maybe Skill focus in either Spellcraft or Knowledge (Religion).... any others that would be apporpriate?
- Patron diety's portfolio includes magic (this works out to an alignment restriction as well, given the favored soul's 1-step alignment restriction, but restricts the choice of diety more than the favored soul class)

I don't know if the patron deity bit is necessary, though if you want to restrict these guys to a single culture or religion it might be cool. You could even just specify a deity- in fact, I think it's a good idea to do so, if you don't have another type of spontaneous divine caster than favored soul.

HD: d6 (drop by 1 from favored soul and battle sorcerer)?
BAB: as cleric (same)
Saves: as wizard (drop by 2 from favored soul; same as battle sorcerer)

Ergh, I still say go with d4, worst attack. If this guy's getting full spells in both classes, he shouldn't outpace a mystic theurge. Regardless of the fact that he doesn't get in early, at 20th level the picture's the same except that the mystic theurge has worse BAB and hit points. How is that balanced?

I'm thinking of restricting all metamagic feats from this character -- i.e., if the character knows any metamagic feats, they've focused too much on manipulating either divine or arcane energy, and are not as open to learning to channel/cast the other type of magic. So, "must not know any metamagic feats" would be an entry requirement, and "can not learn any metamagic feats" would be a class restriction.

This is interesting, but I don't really get it. If you have a metamagic feat, you can use it to manipulate both arcane and divine spells. Why would it make you focus too much on one or the other?

Another thing to consider: while this may look overpowered compared to an arcane-based prestige class, take a look at the divine-based prestige classes: d8s, cleric BAB, two good saves, special ability and spellcasting every level.
Comparing this to a cleric-based prestige class, you drop a hit die level, a good save, and all the per-level special abilities in exchange for sorcerer spells.

Er, but compared to arcane classes it's heads and away better; you basically trade away your sorcerer levels for better BAB and hp and you get a ton of divine spells. You can't ignore the comparison to arcane classes, because it is one.

Note also that the wizard/psion theurge type in the XPH is just like the mystic theurge- d4, one good save, advances caster and manifester level only.

 

[Khaalis]

Just because there are unbalanced prestige classes out there doesn't mean you should write one.

The problem is - in who's opinion are they balanced or not balanced? There are as many play styles out there as their are grains of sand on the beach. Just to be fair - not everyone sees game balance from the same perspective. Not even among the "professionals".

Ergh, I still say go with d4, worst attack. If this guy's getting full spells in both classes, he shouldn't outpace a mystic theurge. Regardless of the fact that he doesn't get in early, at 20th level the picture's the same except that the mystic theurge has worse BAB and hit points. How is that balanced?

This defeats the author's original purpose which was to create a Battle Theurge. If they wanted a standard Mystic Theurge they would have just used that class as printed.

Note also that the wizard/psion theurge type in the XPH is just like the mystic theurge- d4, one good save, advances caster and manifester level only.

Yes it is the same, because it falls into the same category as the Mystic Theurge. MT assumes and is DESIGNED for a Cleric/Wizard and focuses on the weakest aspect of the contributing classes for saves and BAB (round down rule). For the XPH Theurge - Psions are basically Wizards in almost ever respect anyway so thusly the Theurge is also Wizard based.

Personally I think that if the rules from UA are being applied, a Battle Theurge is just as viable. The more I think about it though, you need to add the following conditions I forgot to mention in my previous post.
* Limited to Light Armor only without Arcane Spell Failure
* -1 Spell Per Day applies to BOTH classes increased by Theurge levels
* -1 Spell Known applies to BOTH classes increased by Theurge levels

This brings the "Battle" variant penalties to the divine side as well in the Theurge mix and helps to balance the power level more and makes sense that the "Battle" variant would influence the character as a whole once they learned to blend the two styles together.

JMHO.

 

[Marshall]

If there's one thing I've learned from looking over assorted prestige classes, it's that they are *not* balanced -- either against each other or against the core classes.

But there is usually some attempt to balance it, whether successful or not.

Magic-based prestige classes (whether arcane or divine) typically have +1 caster level *and* a special ability for *every* level. That's definitely more powerful than the base class. The Loremaster and the Red Wizard are both examples of that -- at a couple of levels, the Red Wizard gets *two* specials in addition to the spells.

You have to look at what the Loremasters pre-reqs are - A bunch of skill points and a wasted feat. In return, you get a bunch of skill points and a bonus feat. Then you give up your bonus MM/IC feats to get a finite list of weak feat-like abilities. Its not really a very good class, UNLESS you want to play the sage-type character who would have spent alot of points on Know(X) anyway.

The Red Wizard is powerful, but look at what you have to give up to get there.

So consider:
Requirements:
- Ability to spontaneously cast both 2nd-level divine and 2nd-level arcane spells (translation: entry requirement is level 9).

Good.

- Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks (translation: you spend 16 out of your 22+(int bonus*11) skill points on these two skills).

Dont know about Spellcraft, might suggest K(Arc) 8 or raising the Spellcraft requirement to 11. That way you are guaranteeing level 9 as entry level. Tho with both classes being 2+ SP and neither particularly emphasizing INT that skill cost is gonna hurt.

- Feat: maybe Skill focus in either Spellcraft or Knowledge (Religion).... any others that would be apporpriate?

Drop it as unnecessary. Both are feat-poor classes, no need to penalize any more.

- Patron diety's portfolio includes magic (this works out to an alignment restriction as well, given the favored soul's 1-step alignment restriction, but restricts the choice of diety more than the favored soul class)

Drop it.

HD: d6 (drop by 1 from favored soul and battle sorcerer)?
BAB: as cleric (same)
Saves: as wizard (drop by 2 from favored soul; same as battle sorcerer)

Good.
At 20th level, at best, you will be BAB +4 and +10(avg) hp to a SOR and cast at 16th level. WooHoo!
You might even get away with a d8...

I'm thinking of restricting all metamagic feats from this character --

Why?!? MM feats enhance spells known. Spells known is NOT a weakness of this char.

Another thing to consider: while this may look overpowered compared to an arcane-based prestige class, take a look at the divine-based prestige classes: d8s, cleric BAB, two good saves, special ability and spellcasting every level.
Comparing this to a cleric-based prestige class, you drop a hit die level, a good save, and all the per-level special abilities in exchange for sorcerer spells.

The question really is, Is the arcane spell list 2HD(40HP) steps, a BAB(+5) step, a better save(+6), and ASF better than the divine list? Or, conversely, Is the Divine list that much worse?

 

[monboesen]

For the one I said the requirements were so high that the first level it could be taken was 13, and that character is so far behind the power curve that they might just suicide before then because of it

Well as I stated this only have a relevant meaning if the character is actually played from level 1 and all the way up. But a more likely situation would be that a players high level character has been killed. When replacing that character most dm's will let the player create a new high level character, mayber 1 or 2 levels lower than the lost one. At this point classes like Mystic theurge and the proposed Spontaneous theurge suddenly looks like a very good deal. You don't have to go through those terrible qualifying levels but start right at the point where these classes are very powerful.

I can accept this for the Mystic theurge (even have one in my campaign) but as I consider the proposed Spontaneous theurge stronger (though with a longer entry period of low power) I dont think it is a good idea to allow one. At least I would not in my game.

In the end then, with proper prereq's the class can, and should, be more powerful than a normal class/prc. Because of the very cost it took to get there

This I just flat out disagree with. Prestige classes should never be more powerful than core classes. When they are, its bad design (and yes several official ones fall into this category). What they should be is more focused and possibly better at some things at the cost of being worse at other things.

 

[the Jester]

Prestige classes should never be more powerful than core classes. When they are, its bad design (and yes several official ones fall into this category). What they should be is more focused and possibly better at some things at the cost of being worse at other things.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

It is possible that this is basically a matter of taste (all balance, after all, is a matter of taste) and so I readily admit that, in your game, something like your spontaneous theurge- from which the right character can clearly come out far ahead- might be okay. It wouldn't be in my game, though.

This thread really points something out to me, though- the weak point in the sorcerer, design-wise, is that it loses nothing by taking a prc with full spellcasting advancement. I've become convinced that sorcerers should get bonus metamagic feats every five levels or so, to help balance prcs.

 

[Darklone]

Someone interested in a spontaneous MT might have a look at the spellsinger class in the Kalamar Players Guide... 2nd level spells at third level.