Spoon feed or let them fend for themselves?

[diaglo]

let them eat cake.

if that is what they want to do.

don't spoonfeed them. but don't be stingy with filling them in on what's going on around them.

 

[Nightfall]

Agreed dialgo,

It's the difference between revealing that kindly old councilman that's been so helpful is actually a cultist of Orcus versus telling players the Witch King of Angmar is coming and he wants that sword you just found. Especially as he's announcing it while raising an army of the undead.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Several of the players suggested that I needed to provide more direction as DM.
Here's the scenario:
..... The party has intercepted one of the messengers and discovered all of this information. The party is also too weak to take on the Warlocks directly.

As DM, to what extent do I lead them to a way to stop this powder from coming from the east?

As much as they need and you are comfortable doing.

Here's some different techniques I have used or seen used to provide information to players:

Character Knowledge: When a player looks at you with a complete lack of comprehension or an utter certainty there's nothing they can do when you are certain they have all the info they need, they aren't understanding the capabilities *you* believe them to have. In this case, you can provide some reasonable background for a character that the player might not realize his character has.
In your war scenario this might be the nearest military installation, a nearby druid grove, or a group of warlock hunters.

NPCs: These are the greatest source of information in my games. I've taught my players that NPCs are filled with knowledge. I did that by assuming that most conversations were in-character and unless the PCs were some place private that NPCs might butt in. "Warlocks?!? What you need is a tetragramaton cleric!"

Limiting player memory vs character memory: When I know the player is forgetting something I'll ocassionally have them make INT checks to remember something. I don't *tell* them what they're rolling or why, but it's basically me being their character's subconscious. I don't do it all the time, just when they're missing the obvious.

Common knowledge: what's common knowledge for a DnD adventurer is completely different from a 21st century gamer. You know how to drive, use electronics (TV, vcr, microwave, ATM), operate firearms (with uncertain accuracy), 911 to contact police/fire/rescue, etc, etc. The adventurer has a completely different knowledge set and the player may not be aware of the kinds of things his character might know.
In those cases, flat out tell players info their character would definitely know if they don't appear to realize it, such as any character with an Alchemy skill of 10 or better automatically knows Black Pearl Powder is only available from the City of Ickyharbor.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I'm having this problem too. A while back, the party encountered a swarm of wasps, blocking the road. They dithered about aimlessly for over an hour of real time before coming up with any sort of plan. Most of the time was spent with "Well, there's nothing my character can do, so I'll just sit here and wait" comments from the players.

If they didn't try to go around they need serious mental care. However I suspect, intentionally or not, you implied the road was utterly unavoidable and there was no way around.

One thing I've done is tape record my game sessions and then listen to them a day or two later. It's important to wait a day or two or else you'll be able to repeat your words verbatim and everything will seem fine; wait until the memories fade and you'll be able to hear the difference between what you *thought* you said and what you *really* said.

Of course in my case it really just proved my players have more selective memory than I do and that most of the problems I thought I was having in accurate description was in fact the players being dense. (I didn't think I'd be bungling scripts or notes after years of drama and speech courses combined with memory training exercises)

Later, I tried to give them info about a dungeon that I had planned. An NPC told them about a magic sword, told them who had the map to the place. None of the players bothered to even try to get any further info about it, they just complained about not having any "direction".

This might not be direction(DM) as much as it is direction(game). I, personally, hate "find the magic whoosis" sessions: it feels like I'm playing Diablo.

Consider asking your players what kinds of adventures they'd like to play. Don't just listen to the detail but the nuances. A swashbuckling campaign doesn't mean "guys on boats saying Arr" it means Erol Flynn swinging from chandeliers exchanging barbed comments and charming the ladies just like King Arthur isn't "armored guys on horses."

Take a look at your game and figure out what flavor it has. Does it have any? Why? What are you considering flavor? Are you sure that isn't just special effects in your mind's eye? (Meaning "kewl critters" don't translate well as flavor on their own without a LOT of DM work)

 

[Pagan priest]

If they didn't try to go around they need serious mental care. However I suspect, intentionally or not, you implied the road was utterly unavoidable and there was no way around.

Well, I didn't mention it here, but they had a wagon and it was a road through a hilly area... easy to walk around, have to use the road for the wagon.

This might not be direction(DM) as much as it is direction(game). I, personally, hate "find the magic whoosis" sessions: it feels like I'm playing Diablo.

Prior to this gaming session, I had sent out an e-mail asking the players what direction they wanted to go. Only one bothered to answer (and then only once I showed up to the game), and he said he wanted a dungeon crawl. No body argued this idea.

Consider asking your players what kinds of adventures they'd like to play. Don't just listen to the detail but the nuances. Take a look at your game and figure out what flavor it has. Does it have any? Why? What are you considering flavor? Are you sure that isn't just special effects in your mind's eye? (Meaning "kewl critters" don't translate well as flavor on their own without a LOT of DM work)

Flavor? I've offered to cook gourmet meals, and they are insisting on fast food! In the last session, one player (having been duly wacked upside the head with a clue by four after the previous session) was trying to get the party to go and talk to the NPC's for some information about possible adventures, another player was constantly interupting him, insisting that "we get on with the adventure"

 

[Belen]

Ugh, my players have fallen into this trap. They just look at me and expect me to drive the game and give them all the info they need to get from point A to point B.

The most of get from them is "I roll gather info." They never go places to talk to people or even tell me who they want to get info from.

<sigh> Luckily, my campaign ended last Saturday and we are starting a whole new ball game. I have made sure to inform them that I will not have another campaign like it.

We'll see what happens....

In response to your question: Do NOT give them anything. Make them work for it. Make them figure out who to talk too ect. Only gives hints for knowledge checks and stuff like gather info. For instance, a gather info check gives them a hint at who MAY know something.

 

[Enkhidu]

First, I'm going to give you some DM homework. Go to the local video store and rent Red Dawn. Once you've watched it, you'll know why - it will be an invaluable resource of hooks for you.

Second, Kahuna has the right idea - character knowledge is greater than player knowledge in this instance. If this is the hometown of the PCs, they will be as intimately aware of routes as you are of your hometown's streets. They will know (and more importantly be known by) the local townsfolk. Use these to your advantage:

If the PC's know that a messenger left 2 days ago from the invaders encampment to go back east, the players (especially and wilderness oriented ones) will know likely trails to ambush them on, and the PCs could concievably make better time. They will better know about the natural hazards - "Let's jump 'em here, right where the mudslide happened last summer. If we get them up against the drop off, they'll have no where to run."

Don't be afraid to let the PCs become Robin Hood like heroes - have a lone farmer seek them out in the wild to let them know that "strange things are afoot" in what's left of town, and that the Boss is expecting something big a fotnight from now. Give them crumbs until they figure out what they want to do.

 

[ForceUser]

It really depends on the dynamic of the group. Personally, I like to drop hints and let them come to their own conclusions. If they are trying to figure things out and simply aren't asking the right people the right questions, then I'd go easy on them and either steer them toward the right places or give them more hints. If they aren't putting any effort into figuring out your plot, then why put any effort into DMing? Your players should be interested enough in your story that they want to know what's going on - if all they do is sit around and wait for you to direct them toward the next battle, then I guarantee you someone at the table isn't having any fun (most likely you, the DM).

Your best bet is to communicate with your players and ask them what you're doing right or wrong. Who knows? Maybe the hints you've given - while clear to you - are too subtle for them. Maybe they've given up on trying to figure things out because you always (intentionally or not) stonewall them. Maybe they have discovered that no matter what they decide to do, you are going to create the same outcome, so why bother? The only way to know is to clear the air and talk about it.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Well, I didn't mention it here, but they had a wagon and it was a road through a hilly area... easy to walk around, have to use the road for the wagon.

Yeah. Then I would have waited around, gotten lunch, and seen if they were going to move or not.

Prior to this gaming session, I had sent out an e-mail asking the players what direction they wanted to go. Only one bothered to answer (and then only once I showed up to the game), and he said he wanted a dungeon crawl. No body argued this idea.

Ah. Sounds a lot like your group is like mine then. Some people aren't big on self determination. My group filled out a survey, and their answers insisted that everything was fine, though it wasn't. But "What do you want to do next game" is a big question. It's hard to answer. I found, that working with focus groups, you get better answers if you ask questions like "are the pictures too big?" Try listing some options. And if you have allready, I apologise for presuming you hadn't.

And my typical answer to the question of what direction I'd want to go, would be "A direction where I'm very important." Not really helpful, and I'm a freaking DM.

Flavor? I've offered to cook gourmet meals, and they are insisting on fast food! In the last session, one player (having been duly wacked upside the head with a clue by four after the previous session) was trying to get the party to go and talk to the NPC's for some information about possible adventures, another player was constantly interupting him, insisting that "we get on with the adventure"

Again. Sounds a lot like my situation. I know mine is the result of one bad egg, and a combination of the food they like and my cooking style. I just like garlic more than they do.

And, allow me to say that there are many situations where fast food works out better than a gourmet meal. For example, when time or money is important. Or perhaps when you want the exact same level of mediocrity you had last week.

What I found with my group is that they do their best work in the 30 seconds leading up to combat, and the 30 seconds of post beat down euphoria. It just took me 3 campaigns to realize that maybe I should work with that instead of trying intrigue or epic conquests. I can do that with a different set of people. But it's important to realize that if there is a problem, as DM you're a part of it, even if it is simply that you need to find a new group.