Spooney review 4e

[ProfessorCirno]

On the rambling, as others said, it gave it a human touch. He didn't pre-record or write all this down in advance - he simply spur of the moment decided to record his thoughts as he had them on his experiences with 4e. If anything, that makes this a far more human and understandable review then what you typically get on the internet.

 

[LightPhoenix]

He's giving his opinion... you should want mathematical proofs?

Except that he presents his opinion as fact, and when you do that you do actually need numbers ot back it up.

 

[TheWinslow]

It adds a human touch.

Whatever. I think it makes the video uninteresting.

He's giving his opinion... you should want mathematical proofs?

If he coherently explained what he didn't like about 4th Edition I'd agree with you, but most of his objections come off as vague pining for AD&D.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'll go ahead and defend the "classes are similar" comment.

300 different abilities, sure, but all those abilities work the same basic way, leading to much the same kind of gameplay regardless of what class you choose.

All those variations on "Damage + Effect" still feel very much the same, even in play. A rogue feels like a wizard feels like a fighter feels like a cleric, the only slight change is the effect (and that mostly goes along role lines).

It would seem that throwing sand in somebody's eyes and melting their face with a vision of the Far Realm should follow different mechanics, but with 4e, it's largely: "Damage + Blinded (for a while)."

This is a trait of 4e that supplements aren't likely to change because its ingrained in the very format of the powers system. It has its advantages (its a lot easier to balance and adjudicate), but "sameness" is one of its disadvantages.

 

[TheWinslow]

300 different abilities, sure, but all those abilities work the same basic way, leading to much the same kind of gameplay regardless of what class you choose.

I think there has to be a degree of uniformity in order to achieve game balance, but I disagree with any notion that characters of different classes all play the same.

Just because things look similar on paper doesn't mean it all plays the same way. Especially when you neglect to account for defensive capabilities.

 

[Imp]

I think there has to be a degree of uniformity in order to achieve game balance, but I disagree with any notion that characters of different classes all play the same.

The 4e treatment is a pretty big break from previous editions, where different classes have their own mechanics to differentiate the flavor of the magic they wield or the ambush skills they have or whatever.

On the other hand

Yep, I know some knowledge skills made it in, but some of the distinctions don't make much sense. For example, knowledge of the Far Realms being in the Dungeoneering skill, or Arcana folding in Fey, Shadowfell, and Elemental knowledge (3 VERY different areas in 4e). So I put in a few new skills such as Forbidden Lore (Far Realms and other assorted weirdness in my world), Spirit Lore (Shadowfell), Faerie Lore, Undead Lore, Supernal Lore, etc. I wanted a little more granularity out of the knowledges than what 4e offered.

You have to admit that many of the monster-identifying skill uses didn't make a ton of sense in 3e either – I basically threw 'em out for similar reasons. I like your solution though it seems like it might work better in a granular 3e system where you could throw in a few points and be sort of okay for a lot of Knowledge checks.

 

[TheWinslow]

The 4e treatment is a pretty big break from previous editions, where different classes have their own mechanics to differentiate the flavor of the magic they wield or the ambush skills they have or whatever.

No doubt. But it's an overstatement to say that these classes play exactly the same. Two Fighters might play very similarly, but there's a world of difference between a cleric and a warlord, and just as big a difference between a warlock and ranger.

For example, the cleric has status and ranged attacks at first level that the warlord would kill for. Conversely the warlord has movement and attack bonus powers that a cleric would love to have. There's overlap, to be sure, but only enough to guarantee that both can do the job, and beyond that there's plenty of room for distinction.

You could argue that this still makes characters less distinct than in 3.5, but to me that sidesteps the real issue: roleplaying. Ultimately the most effective way to make a character distinct from its surroundings is to roleplay well. The system really doesn't matter.

 

[TheWinslow]

The 4e treatment is a pretty big break from previous editions, where different classes have their own mechanics to differentiate the flavor of the magic they wield or the ambush skills they have or whatever.

No doubt. But it's an overstatement to say that these classes play exactly the same. Two Fighters might play very similarly, but there's a world of difference between a cleric and a warlord, and just as big a difference between a warlock and ranger.

For example, the cleric has status and ranged attacks at first level that the warlord would kill for. Conversely the warlord has movement and attack bonus powers that a cleric would love to have. There's overlap, to be sure, but only enough to guarantee that both can do the job, and beyond that there's plenty of room for distinction.

You could argue that this still makes characters less distinct than in 3.5, but to me that sidesteps the real issue: roleplaying. Ultimately the most effective way to make a character distinct from its surroundings is to roleplay well. The system really doesn't matter.

 

[TheWinslow]

The 4e treatment is a pretty big break from previous editions, where different classes have their own mechanics to differentiate the flavor of the magic they wield or the ambush skills they have or whatever.

No doubt. But it's an overstatement to say that these classes play exactly the same. Two Fighters might play very similarly, but there's a world of difference between a cleric and a warlord, and just as big a difference between a warlock and ranger.

For example, the cleric has status and ranged attacks at first level that the warlord would kill for. Conversely the warlord has movement and attack bonus powers that a cleric would love to have. There's overlap, to be sure, but only enough to guarantee that both can do the job, and beyond that there's plenty of room for distinction.

You could argue that this still makes characters less distinct than in 3.5, but to me that sidesteps the real issue: roleplaying. Ultimately the most effective way to make a character distinct from its surroundings is to roleplay well. The system really doesn't matter.

 

[Gothmog]

Sounds like a good solution. And how have you made those available to the different classes? I am asking, because I have the same issues as you, but I haven't had the time to come up with a decent fix...


Sounds like a good book. Will have to see if I can track it down.

Well, here is how I broke down the knowledge skills:

Arcana- used to ID spell effects, magic item ID, detect magic
Dungeoneering- used like Nature indoors, tracking underground, ID subterranean plants and animals, knowing about geology, underground foraging, etc
Nature- used for tracking, ID plants and animals, herbalism, foraging
Religion- used to know about your religion (+3 bonus) or other religions and their teachings, theology, symbolism, prophecies, etc

and the new ones:

Elemental Lore- recall info about elemenal creatures, including demons, and how the elemental planes react, elemental lore
Faerie Lore- used to recall fey legends, Feywild lore, events, creatures, and misc lore
Forbidden Lore- used to recall info about the Far Realm and its denizens (abberations)
Spirit Lore- used to recall info about the Shadowfell, spirit creatures who dwell there, etc
Supernal Lore- gives info about devils, angels, the gods, Astral Sea, etc
Undead Lore- used to ID undead, know common legends about the undead, and signs of undead activity



The classes that get these as class skills are:

Cleric: Arcana, Religion, Spirit Lore, Supernal Lore, Undead Lore
Fighter: None
Paladin: Religion, Supernal Lore
Ranger: Dungeoneering, Nature
Rogue: Dungeoneering
Warlock: Arcana, Religion and Faerie Lore, Forbidden Lore, or Supernal Lore- depending on type of pact
Warlord: None
Wizard: Arcana, Elemental Lore, Faerie Lore, Religion, Forbiddern Lore, Spirit Lore, Supernal Lore, Undead Lore