Spycraft 2.0 - is it as difficult as it looks?

[Plane Sailing]

I've got the Spycraft 2.0 book, and I love the strides in rules development that I see in it - things like the stress damage, and the dramatic conflict resolution are brilliant, and offer lots of wonderful possibilities (stress damage as an improved sanity mechanic, perhaps?).

But... I don't know that I'd want to try and run a Spycraft 2.0 game - it seems so intimidating with page after page after page or charts and rules. It looks like it would be incredibly easy to get bogged down in character creation or in the 'intel phase', let alone the actual mission itself!

For those who play spycraft 2.0, would you like to reassure me (or otherwise!) about what it is really like to plan and adventure and run an adventure?

Cheers

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Heck, I'D just like to hear from somebody actually playing it.

After several weeks of paging through it now and then I've personally come to the conclusion that it's about 25% Really Genius Changes and 50% Useless Changes.

If you were to go through the book and change everything that WORKS exactly the same as the d20 SRD but was "clarified" and broken into half a dozen sections, you could probably reduce the page-count of the book by 1/3.

For every Stress Damage mechanic (genius!) you've got, well, just about every other damage listing in that section. Laser, Collision, Fire, Cold, Flash, etc. Most of which work pretty much exactly the same, and could have just been listed together, but which have minor deviations and their own "stat block".

Personally, I'm just strip-mining it for mechanics to add to Grim Tales. I'm in a situation where I may not get to GM again for a year or so ( ) ... I've contemplated asking to run a one-shot with the system As-Is, but the ponderous bloated corpulence of the rules surrounding the good stuff makes me cringe at the thought. (Even doing the whole Super Spies genre, which I generally don't much like.)

If I do, I'll let you know how it goes.

--fje

 

[Pbartender]

For those who play spycraft 2.0, would you like to reassure me (or otherwise!) about what it is really like to plan and adventure and run an adventure?

I've got a Spycraft 2.0 game planned for the Chicago Game Day this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Also, in about two or three weeks, I begin a Star Wars campaign using the Spycraft 2.0 rules. I can talk about that later, once it get going.

So far, I can say authoritatively, that mission design is a piece of cake. So far I've built two complete adventures, one designed to play in about 3 hours and another designed to play through in about 10. Neither of them took longer than a half an hour to prepare, including time spent typing and printing, and neither of them had statistics... including traps, NPCs, vehicles, gear, and experience awards... taking more than a single-sided sheet of paper using 10-point Courier font.

So far, I can also say authoritatively, that character creation can be rough going... especially if it's the first time through. I plan on coming up with a couple of clear flow charts to use as cheat sheets for the first few sessions for character creation, gearing up, and such.

Gearing up is conceptually easy, but is actually harder than it should be, simply because of the way the charts are organized.

Over all, I don't think it's really any more complicated than, say, D&D 3.5... It's just different.

 

[Henry]

At the risk of being called simplistic, I'm having some problems with envisioning running a full game of this, too. I'm with heap - about 25% of this is some brilliant additions. Feats have become, miraculously, even MORE attractive than they were in Spycraft 1! The expansion of Chases into Dram. Conflicts is something that needed developing for a long time now - now actions that used to be maligned for "turning into a simple dice roll" can keep both the story-centric players and the butt-kicker players happy at the same time!

On the other hand, Autofire looks slightly more complicated; combat initiative looks VASTLY more complicated. Actions are highly varied, but an inexperienced player runs the risk of drowning in them.

I've come to the conclusion that I need to play (preferably) or run (next preferable) several games of it to get the proper feel for this; it could be one of those things like Alternity was to me - originally looked complicated on paper, but runs very smoothly in practice. Hopefully, it will be more like Spycraft than Spawn of Fashan.

The even worse news is, since AEG had their layoff, I am worried that the support and the demonstrations for this game will be too scarce to get a look at it.

 

[Jim Hague]

Here's my take after half a dozen sessions using the engine for Gamma World:

No, it's not. Things have, surprisingly, been simplified - all those rules? You use them maybe 20% of the time. The basic stuff - maybe 20% of the rules - you use 80% of the time. Combats go a hell of a lot quicker than 1.0, and by quick I mean nearly MnM quick. Here's a breakdown on our group:

*Middling experience gamer, hasn't played in 2-3 years.
*Brand new gamer, only previous experience was with MnM
*2 experienced gamers, used 1.0

The three or four fights (always the longest part of a game session) have been against multiple opponents, varying conditions, including open field/forest, inside a high-tech complex and in a cave system. Close quarters or extended range, vehicle combat and ground. All of them went blindingly fast. Autofire is a lot simpler now, Feats are more consistent, skills have all their checks defined.

The less experienced and newer players (newer one being 14) picked up on the rules quickly. To address Henry's concern about initiative - no, not at all. You'll rarely adjust, unless you're doing something strange or firing a really huge weapon. And it clicks nicely with the Coordinated Actions rules, too. This is from me, who hates the fluid init system in MAG and Stargate, mind.

Complex? Not really. Comprehensive. And making NPCs is about 30 seconds to a minute now.

 

[Psion]

I ran a session at DC game day. I spent most of my prep time getting the pre-gens ready. I didn't have time to pre-do gear for them, so I did it during the session. I was really concerned this was going to bog play down. But to my surprise, it did not. Provided you have enough gear lists (fortunately, 2 players had books), gear picks go pretty smooth.

Play went pretty smooth and the book is organized better than you think. The book supports a lot of things, and the index will usually send you right where you need to go. There were a few cases where I felt I was better of handwaving a solution until I was more familiar, but for a game that I had not entirely read, there were really tolerably few.

I didn't come away from the game thinking it was "difficult."

Oh, yes. Quick NPCs were a godsend.

 

[Henry]

Combats go a hell of a lot quicker than 1.0, and by quick I mean nearly MnM quick.

MnM quick? You jest! That I have to look again; the impression I got was complicated by dynamic inits and the actions that had multiple parts to complete in the combat chapter.

Autofire is a lot simpler now, Feats are more consistent, skills have all their checks defined.

I love the feats, no doubt; the players having that much room for both tricks and style is a great addition.

Autofire gave me a different impression. I loved Spycraft 1's Auto and Strafe rules, and the "one roll" aspect was simple and easy to follow to me; the new one - I can't put my finger on, and until I get to a book, I won't be able to tell you what strikes me as more complicated about it. Doesn't it have an extra step from SC1's rules?

To address Henry's concern about initiative - no, not at all. You'll rarely adjust, unless you're doing something strange or firing a really huge weapon. And it clicks nicely with the Coordinated Actions rules, too. This is from me, who hates the fluid init system in MAG and Stargate, mind.

What I don't understand is how you rarely adjust, if almost every action has a 1 to 3 init adjustment attached? That's what gets me, as a user of initiative cards, which are the greatest thing since dice.

And making NPCs is about 30 seconds to a minute now.

And the NPC system I've definitely got to look over a FOURTH time, because while everybody tells me how simple it is, I've got too many old Dungeon Master-isms that I'm having trouble overcoming when designing adventures and plotting encounters and CR's.

Is it just something that it's going to take play to overcome, or does anyone have a better place to look? I've tried following the Alderac forums, and all I see are conversions on how to convert this, that and the other to Spycraft, darned little about RUNNING the thing as-is.

 

[Jim Hague]

MnM quick? You jest! That I have to look again; the impression I got was complicated by dynamic inits and the actions that had multiple parts to complete in the combat chapter.

I said almost, but yes. Surprised the hell out of me, too. Definitely as quick ad a DnD 3.5 combat, likely a bit quicker. I'm making allowances for my group here.

Autofire gave me a different impression. I loved Spycraft 1's Auto and Strafe rules, and the "one roll" aspect was simple and easy to follow to me; the new one - I can't put my finger on, and until I get to a book, I won't be able to tell you what strikes me as more complicated about it. Doesn't it have an extra step from SC1's rules?

You may be getting hung up on the +2 error range or the double recoil (which for most autofire weapons doesn't come into play), but it's 1 roll to hit, 3 bullets per volley, max volleys equal to 1/3 the ammo you have left, -1 per volley. That also means you can replicate spray and pray with high-volume automatic pistols...

What I don't understand is how you rarely adjust, if almost every action has a 1 to 3 init adjustment attached? That's what gets me, as a user of initiative cards, which are the greatest thing since dice.

Fortunately, I've got my book here at work, so...let's take a look. It'll help cement the rules in my head anyways.

Aim increases your count by +1.
Brace by +1.
Called Shot -5.
Delay and Regroup adjust +x variably.
Joint Action is a special case.
Press adjusts by -20, but you get to go right away.

And that's it. That's a few actions (not counting Recoil penalties, but again - unless you have low Str characters, you won't see those) out of the lots and lots available.

And the NPC system I've definitely got to look over a FOURTH time, because while everybody tells me how simple it is, I've got too many old Dungeon Master-isms that I'm having trouble overcoming when designing adventures and plotting encounters and CR's.

Is it just something that it's going to take play to overcome, or does anyone have a better place to look? I've tried following the Alderac forums, and all I see are conversions on how to convert this, that and the other to Spycraft, darned little about RUNNING the thing as-is.

Ahh, but the NPCs are scaled by mission caliber compared to agent level, not CR. Personally, I don't care for the scene or mission CR, but there's tidy little rules for NPC experience right there. As for the rest...yeah, in play it works a lot better than it looks on paper, and once you get into the swing of it, it runs damned fast.

 

[Plane Sailing]

These are some excellent responses. I'm encouraged that a number of brainy people are having similar difficulties 'getting it' to me; but also encouraged by the 'in-play' reports that it is simpler to implement than it looks

 

[Jim Hague]

These are some excellent responses. I'm encouraged that a number of brainy people are having similar difficulties 'getting it' to me; but also encouraged by the 'in-play' reports that it is simpler to implement than it looks

Believe me, I had the same concerns when I saw this monster tome - all those rules, but no background? Uh oh. But in play, yeah...very, very smooth. I especially like the revised Knowledge checks. And gear up is so, so, so much better.