Spycraft Action Dice in 3E D&D

[Abraxas]

Thanks Kap'n

One other question - were you more likely to include more lethal encounters because the players had AD to try to avoid the effects?

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I think I was, but that was a mistake... I almost killed one player by doing so, and now I don't bother to adjust the encounters because of action dice and it works fine (deadly enough as is!).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

We tried them last week in my existing game. The players had d8s due to their level.

1) The character who just took a level of Fatespinner was not happy.

2) The paladin who has a keen, bursting weapon and Improved Crit was not happy.

3) The cleric who burned through almost his entire pool making a saving throw vs. a nasty trap, and then again on his AC (to avoid being plastered by a fire giant) amazingly enough, didn't seem happy either. Go figure. He benefitted more than anyone else, the action dice saved his life twice, but I got the impression he felt it was unfair that he was spending all his dice!

4) Action dice make it even tougher on a DM to appear impartial. If you're not ready for your players to hate you, you are not ready to use action dice. I ended up using mine to hit the tank-like paladin a couple of times, which went over ok. On the other hand, if I had used them to squash the cleric, there would have been a mutiny.

The comments above about character development are true. I don't think you can just stick action dice into an existing game. I really wanted them to work out, cause I think it's a neat mechanic, but I think with the high level of magic in D&D (as opposed to Spycraft) you just don't need them. As their character level increases, players have access to correspondingly powerful spells and magic items to boost their stats and their rolls. With Spycraft, I think action dice fill this need.

Just my .02!


Wulf

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Being the cleric Wulf mentioned who spent all of his dice trying to make a save on a Glyph, I thought I'd weigh in:

The big thing that I didn't like is that (apparently) the only way to confirm a crit is to spend an action die, and you only get 5. For my cleric in Wulf's game, that's pretty irrelevant; I think I've had one or two crits in 11 levels! However, I play a crit-maxed fighter in another game, a keen scimitar, improved criticalling machine who can crit five times in three rounds (12-20 crit range!). Action dice would cripple that character completely, because he'd run out of criticalling options so quickly.

It makes the game a very different game. I'm not sure it's a better game, or a worse game, just different.

I guess the most damning thing I can say is that after testing it out in that game, it didn't even cross my mind until just now that I might implement it in any of my games. It just didn't add anything in my view. The concept left my mind the second the game ended. I'd like a new mechanic to be something that captivates my imagination, and on that level this one failed.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I guess the most damning thing I can say is that after testing it out in that game, it didn't even cross my mind until just now that I might implement it in any of my games. It just didn't add anything in my view. The concept left my mind the second the game ended. I'd like a new mechanic to be something that captivates my imagination, and on that level this one failed.

Another point of evidence that action dice really need to be implemented from day 1.

It's hard to see it adding anything to an established 11th level character, I agree!

But I think if these characters had "grown up" with it, so to speak, it would reflect a little more favorably. Regardless, I think "Action Dice in D&D" is an unnecessary addition.

Wulf

 

[Eridanis]

As the paladin player Wulf mentioned, I came out rather cool towards the action dice at the end of the night. While I was a bit annoyed at the idea of needing to spend one to confirm a crit every time, I suppose you could be used to it if you started your 1st level characters out that way, as Wulf said.

However, my main problem is that it adds an extra level of bookeeping to the game that isn't really necessary, I think. Rolling the dice is the way we resolve conflict and uncertain situations in this game, and there are so many possible modifiers from buffs, equipment, and the BAB increase you get when you level, that is kind of kinks the way 3E resolves things. (And anyway, if I spend a die to increase my AC, and the DM spends one to add to his attack roll, you end up playing tit-for-tat, and the DM would win because he has more dice at his disposal.)

When Kid Char's cleric usues his domain ability to reroll a crucial die roll once per day, that's a pretty special thing. When a Tanil's Touch is available, and you use it, that's a somewhat unique moment if you restrict it as Wulf does. If I can do that up to five times per four-hour session (which is how much we're able to play), I think it would lessen my enjoyment. Life is uncertain, and so are our die rolls. Let 'em fall as they may; we have enough ways to modify them within the rules as it is.

 

[Painfully]

I play Jaag, the dwarf fighter in Wulf's Lazy Days campaign. I think there were too many action dice for one session (we used 5 d8's for each player, and I think Wulf used 8 d12's). I remember reading a similar idea of hero points, but hero points were much more rare, we're talking two points per character, per campaign, with the ability to add points as they did something particularly dramatic or worth rewarding above and beyond just bonus xp.

I think the fact the DM has his own action dice sort of puts a damper on things for the players. And this is for each session?! No way! We'll be rolling enough dice as it is, why play footsie with the DM using action dice too?

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Okay, here's what we do IMC, which I failed to explain before.

Contrary to core rules, we use automatic critical hits whenever a threat is rolled, then use DnDChick's Critical Effects Table to determine where and how badly you get hurt. You do not use Action Dice at all during the critical hit process, except for the person hit who may expend Action Dice to improve his Fort save to overcome DnDChick's critical effects (such as being immediately reduced to 0 hp or -1 and dying, or having an arm chopped off, etc.). We have always played that a 20 is a critical (no extra rolls to see if it is) before 3e and haven't changed this with 3e when it works so well as is (for us at least).

So Action Dice don't effect keen or improved critical in my game.

Also, we have had the DM use his action dice to screw us out of our Action Dice results several times, but he never does it if it will get us killed (at least at that particular moment). One DM Action Die (d12) is reserved for an NPC on our team per session, which any player can call in to activate as needed. The rest are DM only dice 4 the bad guys. Rarely does the DM use all his action dice or even give out extra dice in a session.

Action Dice work!

 

[Abraxas]

posted by Wulf
I really wanted them to work out, cause I think it's a neat mechanic, but I think with the high level of magic in D&D (as opposed to Spycraft) you just don't need them. As their character level increases, players have access to correspondingly powerful spells and magic items to boost their stats and their rolls. With Spycraft, I think action dice fill this need.

Interesting observation - so do you think a non-typical low magic D&D game would make better use, or does the presence of any magic muck up the usefulness of AD?

posted by the Kap'n
Also, we have had the DM use his action dice to screw us out of our Action Dice results several times, but he never does it if it will get us killed (at least at that particular moment). One DM Action Die (d12) is reserved for an NPC on our team per session, which any player can call in to activate as needed.

How did the DM use his action dice to nullify your action dice results?

I like the idea of an NPC reserved DM AD. If I do use AD I will definitely swipe this idea

 

[Nine Hands]

Has anyone used the Action Dice idea from Spycraft in their D&D game? If so how did it affect play?

Of particular interest to me is the effect on spellcasters (both sides boosting saving throw rolls). Did you allow spellcasters to boost the save DCs of their spells?

Im planning a low magic campaign and thought the use of action dice might offset the loss of magic in general.

Thanks for any info.

I have started a campaign and we use them with a couple of differences over the normal Action Dice rules.

You can use them on any die roll (attack, damage, etc). This does lead to certain instances where the characters can become very powerful by spending a few well placed dice. Try to use the action dice as a tool for the campaign (use them out of combat, etc). IMC they can do things that are not listed in the rules. If the character wants to do something that is not normally allowed, charge them a couple or more action dice. This keeps the game moving at a good pace and players are not missing important clues because of bad luck.

Each class has a core ability (the core classes are done, but we are adding in Prestige Classes as we need them). You of course gain the core ability from your first core class and your first prestige class.

You can choose to activate a critical hit by spending an action die or you can roll for a critical threat as normal.

I allow the spending of action dice after the fact (we had an instance were the devoted defender had the opportunity to switch places with his charge and chose not to. When the Beast of Malar tore into the charge (the groups Cleric) and killed him, I allowed the devoted defender and the charge to spend 4 action dice to switch places. I applied the damage to the defender and the cleric lived. I figure the cost was rather high and the Beast was still a major threat at the time.

I adjusted the rules for Psionic save DCs to become static (DC = 10 + power level + ability modifier) to avoid a psion from spending action dice to increase thier save DCs.

So far, the group has had 2 characters spend thier action dice (I think it was all of them) on non-combat related tasks. One was hearing something that someone was saying at someones grave (this had nothing to do with the plot and the player knew it, he was just curious) and the other was for remembering the activation method of a certain gate (which did not have much game impact either).

Action Dice are a tool of the game master, you can use them to your advantage if the group you are playing with uses them with caution. Also it is OK to have some left over at the end of the day, just because you have them left does not mean you have to use them.

I can post the core abilities that we have if anyone is interested. They are still in "testing" but I think they are working out fine.