Stacking Caster levels when multiclass

[Li Shenron]

It must have been discussed before, but let's do it again

To multiclass spellcasters suck because there's no stacking of spellcasting abilities. Otherwise, to multiclass combat-oriented classes works brilliantly since BAB always stacks.

Let's forget about Mystic Theurge or similar PrCl (or non-core feats) that try to address this problem in a different way, and let's think only about this: what would happen if caster level stacked??? Not for purpose of spells known and spells per day, but just for spells effects and caster level checks.

For example, what if a Wizard 5/Cleric 5 (I try to think about mid-high level, but the matter could be very different when seen for example at very high levels) was able to:

- cast spells as a Wiz 5, but with caster level 10
- cast spells as a Cle 5, but with caster level 10

It's obvious that he would have in general more spells/day than a straight Wiz or Cle, he will be stuck with lower-level spells but they will scale somehow in effects (duration, range, and damage typically). Let's try to compare him with the real Wiz 5/Cle 5 who totally suck, as well as with the single-class casters.

Has anybody tried this at all, perhaps in the first days of 3ed?
I haven't, and my current opinion is that he would be quite powerful if he chooses specific spells that have a very high cap, but I quite think he would not disrupt the campaign totally.

Well?

 

[FireLance]

It must have been discussed before, but let's do it again

It's obvious that he would have in general more spells/day than a straight Wiz or Cle, he will be stuck with lower-level spells but they will scale somehow in effects (duration, range, and damage typically). Let's try to compare him with the real Wiz 5/Cle 5 who totally suck, as well as with the single-class casters.

Not true. Assuming Int 18, a Wiz10 has 4/5/5/4/4/2 spells per day - 24 spells totalling 55 spell levels (counting 0-level spells as half). Assuming Wis 18, a Clr10 has 6/5+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/2+1 spells per day - 26 spells plus 5 domain spells totalling 71 spell levels. Assuming Int 16 and Wis 16, a Wiz5/Clr5 has 4/4/3/2 and 5/4+1/3+1/2+1 spells per day - 13 arcane, 14 divine and 3 domain spells totalling 42.5 spell levels. He has more spells than a straight wizard, but less spells than a straight cleric, and fewer spell levels than either.

Has anybody tried this at all, perhaps in the first days of 3ed?
I haven't, and my current opinion is that he would be quite powerful if he chooses specific spells that have a very high cap, but I quite think he would not disrupt the campaign totally.

I have not tried this in an actual game, but my sense is that it would only partly compensate for the power drop compared to a straight caster. The multiclassed spellcaster has about the same number of spells, but fewer spell levels than a straight caster. Caster level is the same. He suffers in quality of spells. His Fireball does the same damage as that of a straight wizard, but the straight wizard can Empower it for more damage, or cast Cone of Cold which affects a larger area. His Cure Serious Wounds heals the same amount of damage as a straight cleric, but the straight cleric can Raise Dead or heal multiple targets with Mass Cure Light Wounds. The advantage of flexibility to cast both wizard and cleric spells does not make up for this in my estimation.

 

[AeroDm]

FireLance has it- the problem comes in the loss of spell slots and spell levels, not caster levels. Gaining that exrta minute of duration isnt going to do much, but gaining that next spell level most certainly does. The hard part comes in that there isn't really any easy way to grant more spell slots/spell levels without reworking the entire system. This rework either makes it too complicated or too easy to min/max in my experiences.

There is a thread going on about a new magic system that addresses this problem, not sure on balance though.

 

[Li Shenron]

Thanks both, your opinions are very useful! What do you think instead about the case where the character has just a couple of levels in the second spellcaster class? Would that be the same?

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

Another solution is to treat multi-classed characters - all multiclassed characters - as two or more single-classed characters when calculating the CR for the encounter.

Wiz5/Clr5 = 2 lvl 5 characters

Sure, ftr5/brb5 might be a little more effective than 2 lvl 5 characters, but in the end it will work out, I think.

 

[Chacal]

The hard part comes in that there isn't really any easy way to grant more spell slots/spell levels without reworking the entire system. This rework either makes it too complicated or too easy to min/max in my experiences.
.

I guess this one would fall in the "too complicated" category then :

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1100659#post1218697



Chacal