Staff Fighting and Dual Implement Spellcaster

[Kingreaper]

Hmmm, same named game element rule by RAW only applies to untyped bonuses. I'd forgotten that.

So it can't really interfere with adding two enhancement bonuses from the same source.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just a consideration: This disagrees with the CS ruling found on page 2, but of course that ruling is about a year old.

The rule didn't exist a year ago. I'd expect conflicts to arise between a recent rules update, and an outsourced company's employee's ruling from a year ago.

The question becomes did they intend for the outcome that they got the way you present it. I still contend that DIS grants an untyped bonus equal to the enhancement bonus of the item in question.

State evidence for this 'untyped bonus' thing. You've contended it, but the text does not exist. However, the bonus doesn't need to be 'whitewashed' as the feat directly contradicts the same bonus type rule and therefore supercedes it.

 

[Aulirophile]

It does not work because, despite the fact that dual implement spellcaster allows you to add a second enhancement bonus to damage, it does not present an exception to the 'same named game element rule.'

That being, that two elements of the same name cannot stack their bonuses.

The staff you are using's enhancement bonus has a name. I don't know what it is because it depends on the staff you are using, but there it is. Let's call that name X.

Dual Implement Spellcaster says you can apply X to your damage rolls, but you're already applying X to that roll. You cannot apply X twice, so even if it could in theory work, it cannot work.

The only way it could work is if the implement in question could, somehow, have both ends enchanted separately. Then both ends would have different names and it would work smoothly.

The question of whether the staff is a double weapon is moot; The rules simply do not allow you to add the exact same bonus twice.

As pointed out above, the March rules update only applies to untyped bonuses. Same Named Game Element bonuses of the same type don't normally stack anyway, so the rule did not include them. DIS supercedes this, causing two Enhancement Bonuses to stack.

Again, works fine.

 

[Kingreaper]

So, if Customer Service can over-rule RAW, DIS works with a single quarterstaff if you have Staff Fighting.

 

[DracoSuave]

As pointed out above, the March rules update only applies to untyped bonuses. Same Named Game Element bonuses of the same type don't normally stack anyway, so the rule did not include them. DIS supercedes this, causing two Enhancement Bonuses to stack.

Again, works fine.

If this is true, then I do agree, because you are wielding an implement in both hands; any other concern is explicitly excepted by the feat.

 

[Kingreaper]

If this is true, then I do agree, because you are wielding an implement in both hands; any other concern is explicitly excepted by the feat.

Read the text of the feat. You must wield an implement in each hand.

If I pick up the laptop I'm on, using both hands, am I holding a laptop in each hand?
No.
I'm holding one in both hands.

 

[CovertOps]

State evidence for this 'untyped bonus' thing. You've contended it, but the text does not exist. However, the bonus doesn't need to be 'whitewashed' as the feat directly contradicts the same bonus type rule and therefore supercedes it.

My contention is just the usage of the phrase "enhancement bonus" anywhere you find it in the rules text. I've contended that it takes on the meanings of quantity and type discretely. For example if you look at PHB p 275 it talks about bonuses and penalties at the bottom and, among others, "enhancement bonus" is listed. This is clearly a listing of bonus "types" as if you try to read this some other way it doesn't make sense. On the next page at the top of the right column it talks about modifiers to damage rolls and again listing all the possible types.

The only other uses of Enhancement I've see are the magic item template:
Enhancement: +x (rolls to which it applies such as AC)

and in various feats and items used in various ways (examples):

Property: Deal extra damage equal to this weapon's enhancement bonus when attacking with combat advantage.

Obviously untyped due to the "equal to this..." phrasing, but clearly used only as a quantity.

Property: While you wield this weapon in your off hand, you gain an item bonus to AC against opportunity attacks equal to the blade's enhancement bonus.

Also untyped..."equal to..." phrasing and clearly referring to quantity only.

Property: Add this weapon's enhancement bonus to the amount healed by your healing word.

Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points, add the Brooch's enhancement bonus to the hit points gained.

When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.

I was going to say here that it matters which way you read it whether or not the healer's items stack, but in considering it I think they stack either way.

If I'm wrong, then those items are granting an exception to the enhancement stacking rules.

If I'm right, they grant an untyped bonus from different "named game elements" and still stack.

I'm sure you can find hundreds of others but my DDI subscription is currently inactive, so I don't have any good search tools. I just picked a few at random.

 

[Aulirophile]

So, if Customer Service can over-rule RAW, DIS works with a single quarterstaff if you have Staff Fighting.

1. CS doesn't overrule RAW.
2. Staff Fighting+DIS works by RAW, because Double Weapons are considered to be wielding two separate weapons. That satisfies the requirement of holding two implements, because each end of a double weapon counts as a separate weapon (and therefore a separate Implement, PHB3 weapiliment defintions yada yada yada).

 

[DracoSuave]

Obviously untyped due to the "equal to this..." phrasing, but clearly used only as a quantity.

This is definately untyped, it does launder a bonus.

Also untyped..."equal to..." phrasing and clearly referring to quantity only.

AN ITEM BONUS EQUAL TO ANYTHING IS NOT AN UNTYPED BONUS

I was going to say here that it matters which way you read it whether or not the healer's items stack, but in considering it I think they stack either way.

Neither of these items are adding 'a bonus equal to.' Both flat out state 'Add this item's enhancement bonus.' And therefore, it IS a typed bonus, enhancement.

When something tells you to add something, it is not changing what that something is.

The difference:

'Add an item bonus equal to the enhancement bonus'

This is adding a number, y, that is equal to x.

'Add the enhancement bonus'

This is adding x directly.

There's a world of difference here.

If I'm wrong, then those items are granting an exception to the enhancement stacking rules.

And an unstated exception at that. I'd not allow it at my table because they are adding same typed bonuses directly.

If I'm right, they grant an untyped bonus from different "named game elements" and still stack.

If you're right, they'd have to say 'Add a number of hitpoints equal to the enhancement bonus' which they do not.

I'm sure you can find hundreds of others but my DDI subscription is currently inactive, so I don't have any good search tools. I just picked a few at random.

Bear in mind, you just did say an item bonus was an untyped bonus... so please reconsider your point very carefully.

 

[Kingreaper]

1. CS doesn't overrule RAW.
2. Staff Fighting+DIS works by RAW, because Double Weapons are considered to be wielding two separate weapons. That satisfies the requirement of holding two implements, because each end of a double weapon counts as a separate weapon (and therefore a separate Implement, PHB3 weapiliment defintions yada yada yada).

In order to count as a staff implement, a weapon must be a quarterstaff.

The off-hand end of a quarterstaff is not, of itself, a quarterstaff. Just like the spear end of an urgrosh is not, by itself, an urgrosh.

Thus, even when weilding a quarterstaff as two weapons, you are only wielding one quarterstaff: IOW you are only wielding one Staff Implement.

If you were a Hybrid Monk, and therefore able to use any weapon (rather than just a quarterstaff) as an implement, it would work.