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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument
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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 7593482" data-attributes="member: 710"><p>I enjoyed the X-Wing series and the Zahn novels mostly, because they maintained the trajectory of the previous movies - things were still to be dealt with, but the heroes still worked to improve things. Han and Leia became parents. </p><p>There were also other novels I enjoyed, but the whole Vong arc was problematic for similar reasons - everything turns to sh*t. But at least we got to still see it all up close, and could feel the losses and wins directly, instead of just being faced with the aftermath. </p><p></p><p>The new movies would have probably worked a lot better for me if they didn't have to include the old cast. Just set it a century later or so, our heroes lived happily ever after, until they died natural deaths. A new threat emerges, and we need new heroes to deal with it. You can't really continue where the cast left off, and if you need to "reset" the setting to go back to where its story and appeal was the strongest, at least you won't trample on their accomplishments directly. </p><p>Maybe the old cast could have still been around as historical records or interactive holograms and force ghosts. But would that have been enough for fans that wanted to see their heroes one last time?</p><p></p><p>I guess you can't really win.</p><p></p><p>Maybe a completely new trilogy - even by Rian Johnson could work, as long as it's removed from the original trilogy.</p><p></p><p></p><p>----</p><p></p><p>Regarding the whole training and Jedi Power Level: One thing to note is that in the prequels Jedi really seem a lot more powerful than in the OT. In the Prequels, all the Jedi we see have received Jedi training since a young age. And Yoda and Obi Wan are both really old in the OT. </p><p>It seems really plausible that all the training counted for something and is what allowed them to do all those tricks, and that age is wearing down on Obi Wan and Yoda and maybe even Vader. </p><p>Rey's power level is definitely not Prequel level yet, however. She seems to pick up things faster than Luke, though. </p><p>But I can also see that "The Force Awakens" suggests more is going on.</p><p></p><p>I think the bigger problem is that it feels like Rey has things a bit too easy. Heroes need to win in the end, but they also need to fail. The second movie in the OT was the place for Luke's biggest failures, arguably - he struggled on Hoth, he finally finds his master, but proves somewhat inadequate and overworked, and then he runs off to save his friends, only to lose a hand, have his convictions shattered and need to be saved himself, and he still loses a friend. But Rey's journey in TLJ lacks that level of failure, and her struggle seems rather shallow - she might not turn Kylo Ren to her side, and find not out what she wants about her parents, but she overpowers Snoke's guards and Kylo Ren and than saves the remainder of the resistance. I don't think that makes her a Mary Sue, but it means her story is kinda bland, we can't fear as well with her and enjoy her highs and lows. (I suppose orphans might feel different.) </p><p>Maybe that was fully intentional and for good reasons, but I think it did work to its detriment. But maybe they feared of writing too much weakness into her, because that could be seen as misogynistic. But I think one of the most important lessons to learn for men and women is that failures happen. Your strength is not in never failing, but in being able to fail and pick yourself up afterwards. </p><p>If we portray our heroes as flawless that always succeeds, it's not just boring - it makes people question that they could be "heroes" or excel at anything because it's supposed to be easy to heroes (or geniuses) and if it's not to you, you're just not the type for it. (I feel that is particularly a problem in pop culture when it comes to "STEM" - movie and TV scientists might have asocial tendencies as flaws, but in their chosen specialties - if they aren't just omni-competent - they don't make errors. But Trial & Error is fundamental. You need the "fortitude" to accept that you'll struggle a lot until you have a solution - but that will make the solution feel more satisfying.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 7593482, member: 710"] I enjoyed the X-Wing series and the Zahn novels mostly, because they maintained the trajectory of the previous movies - things were still to be dealt with, but the heroes still worked to improve things. Han and Leia became parents. There were also other novels I enjoyed, but the whole Vong arc was problematic for similar reasons - everything turns to sh*t. But at least we got to still see it all up close, and could feel the losses and wins directly, instead of just being faced with the aftermath. The new movies would have probably worked a lot better for me if they didn't have to include the old cast. Just set it a century later or so, our heroes lived happily ever after, until they died natural deaths. A new threat emerges, and we need new heroes to deal with it. You can't really continue where the cast left off, and if you need to "reset" the setting to go back to where its story and appeal was the strongest, at least you won't trample on their accomplishments directly. Maybe the old cast could have still been around as historical records or interactive holograms and force ghosts. But would that have been enough for fans that wanted to see their heroes one last time? I guess you can't really win. Maybe a completely new trilogy - even by Rian Johnson could work, as long as it's removed from the original trilogy. ---- Regarding the whole training and Jedi Power Level: One thing to note is that in the prequels Jedi really seem a lot more powerful than in the OT. In the Prequels, all the Jedi we see have received Jedi training since a young age. And Yoda and Obi Wan are both really old in the OT. It seems really plausible that all the training counted for something and is what allowed them to do all those tricks, and that age is wearing down on Obi Wan and Yoda and maybe even Vader. Rey's power level is definitely not Prequel level yet, however. She seems to pick up things faster than Luke, though. But I can also see that "The Force Awakens" suggests more is going on. I think the bigger problem is that it feels like Rey has things a bit too easy. Heroes need to win in the end, but they also need to fail. The second movie in the OT was the place for Luke's biggest failures, arguably - he struggled on Hoth, he finally finds his master, but proves somewhat inadequate and overworked, and then he runs off to save his friends, only to lose a hand, have his convictions shattered and need to be saved himself, and he still loses a friend. But Rey's journey in TLJ lacks that level of failure, and her struggle seems rather shallow - she might not turn Kylo Ren to her side, and find not out what she wants about her parents, but she overpowers Snoke's guards and Kylo Ren and than saves the remainder of the resistance. I don't think that makes her a Mary Sue, but it means her story is kinda bland, we can't fear as well with her and enjoy her highs and lows. (I suppose orphans might feel different.) Maybe that was fully intentional and for good reasons, but I think it did work to its detriment. But maybe they feared of writing too much weakness into her, because that could be seen as misogynistic. But I think one of the most important lessons to learn for men and women is that failures happen. Your strength is not in never failing, but in being able to fail and pick yourself up afterwards. If we portray our heroes as flawless that always succeeds, it's not just boring - it makes people question that they could be "heroes" or excel at anything because it's supposed to be easy to heroes (or geniuses) and if it's not to you, you're just not the type for it. (I feel that is particularly a problem in pop culture when it comes to "STEM" - movie and TV scientists might have asocial tendencies as flaws, but in their chosen specialties - if they aren't just omni-competent - they don't make errors. But Trial & Error is fundamental. You need the "fortitude" to accept that you'll struggle a lot until you have a solution - but that will make the solution feel more satisfying.) [/QUOTE]
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