Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This ended up being a thread about how Zaardnar hates The Last Jedi, so I've edited the title and started a new one.
 
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Imaculata

Adventurer
I've got to say, the title of this movie surprised me. I don't know quite what to make of this trailer. It will be hard to undo the damage of the Last Jedi, but involving the emperor might be a good move. They've got to have a replacement big villain after The Last Jedi so unceremoniously dispatched Snoke.
 

MarkB

Hero
I really hope they're not backtracking from The Last Jedi and making Rey a Skywalker descendant. Let the character stand on her own merits. not just because of some shoehorned-in heritage.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I really hope they're not backtracking from The Last Jedi and making Rey a Skywalker descendant. Let the character stand on her own merits. not just because of some shoehorned-in heritage.
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.
When was it ever that not anyone could become a hero in Star Wars? Han has no special connection to previous heroes. Obi Wan was just some random Jedi, not the heir to a long blood line of Jedi. (Because in the prequels, there are no blood lines of Jedi, the Jedi are against marriage and romantic relationships for Jed.)

Heck, if you just look at the original Star Wars movie, Luke is just some farmboy from a third-class world. The whole "son of Skywalker" thing and the "Anakin Skywalker a force virgin birth" was invented later. It's hardly a defining characteristic.

If they want to make the whole "anyone can be a hero" theme stronger, what they should have done is have a story about someone that wasn't born force sensitive and learns to master the force anyway. Because so far we only have people handed force powers by fate, no one worked to have them. And that is truly limits, it basically tells you: "Hey, if you weren't born special, then there is nothing you can do." (Well, at least not with the force. Obviously Han became a hero in the original trilogy without being force sensitive.)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.
They lost money on Solo and took a 700 million dunking from TFA to TLJ. Rogue One overperformed expctaitions, TLJ underperformed (they didnt expect it to make TFA money but 700 million down), and Solo was a bomb.

Like it or not the movies are about the Skywalkers, at least the 1st 6. Rey more or less has to be one or be killed off unless you render the entire plotline moot.

If you want new heroes that are not Skywalkers, they should have made a different movies with TFA. Even casuals I think would have had some reasonable expectations after the end of RoTJ- Luke reestablishes the Jedi, Han and Leia live happily ever after things like that. There is subverting expectations and then there blowing up the world/pissing your fans off.

They also did a piss poor worldbuilding, a few things male a bit more sense if you read the novels etc but they need explainations in the movies not books and comics, and those explainations also need to be logical/good. For example apparently Rey downloaded Kylos training, but this was not in the movies.

Sure it explains it but the explaination is still crap because.

1. Why bother training younglings in previous movies when they can just force meld and share information.

2. Yodas lines about the dark side being quick and easy. Nope its a lot quicker just being Rey (who may or may not be a Skywalker).

Note this lame explanation was not even in the movies.

The movies don't need to make sense using RL logic but they should adhere to in universe logic. See Hans statements in ANH about plotting hyperspace routes (that Rey just does), or internal logic of the movies (TFA Poe pilots because Finn can't., a few hours/days later Finn flies to Canto Bright).

Its why TLJ is hated/kind of regarded as one of the worst SW movies. The prequels were a god idea executed badly, Disney is no idea executed poorly. To some extent you have to give in to fan expectations/entertain them or they won't be your fans for much longer. Its fairly simple across franchises (D&D 4E, New Coke etc). Its the hardcore fans who will pay to see your movies 6 times over and buy the merchandise, the casuals will go see anything with the Star Wars name on it (or at least did until Solo). It was also the hardcore fans that resurrected Star Wars in 1991 with Heir to the Empire.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] feel free to start more Star Wars threads, but I’m not interested in arguing with diatribes about how terrible you think TLJ is.

Most polls and twitter threads and such I’ve seen show more people putting LTJ in their top 3 than at the bottom and the only metric by which it “underperformed” is “compared to TFA”. By every other possible metric it hit it out of the park.

And no, they don’t have to give in to fans. Fans don’t own franchises.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
When was it ever that not anyone could become a hero in Star Wars? Han has no special connection to previous heroes. Obi Wan was just some random Jedi, not the heir to a long blood line of Jedi. (Because in the prequels, there are no blood lines of Jedi, the Jedi are against marriage and romantic relationships for Jed.)

Heck, if you just look at the original Star Wars movie, Luke is just some farmboy from a third-class world. The whole "son of Skywalker" thing and the "Anakin Skywalker a force virgin birth" was invented later. It's hardly a defining characteristic.

If they want to make the whole "anyone can be a hero" theme stronger, what they should have done is have a story about someone that wasn't born force sensitive and learns to master the force anyway. Because so far we only have people handed force powers by fate, no one worked to have them. And that is truly limits, it basically tells you: "Hey, if you weren't born special, then there is nothing you can do." (Well, at least not with the force. Obviously Han became a hero in the original trilogy without being force sensitive.)
Luke is the hero of the OT.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] feel free to start more Star Wars threads, but I’m not interested in arguing with diatribes about how terrible you think TLJ is.

Most polls and twitter threads and such I’ve seen show more people putting LTJ in their top 3 than at the bottom and the only metric by which it “underperformed” is “compared to TFA”. By every other possible metric it hit it out of the park.

And no, they don’t have to give in to fans. Fans don’t own franchises.
Well they seem to be fixing things TLJ messed up. Some role for Palpatine, fixing the Skywalker saber, tying IX to the Skywalker's, Kylo fixing his mask etc. 44% user rating on 200 000 reviews is alot to fix lol.

Fans don't own franchises but they don't have to support them either.

There are literally hundreds of million reasons why they need to fix Star Wars.
 
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hawkeyefan

Explorer
All anyone has to do to know if the new movies are good is bring a 4 year old.

If the kid leaves excited, jumping around and swinging an imaginary lightsaber, then the movie’s good.

It’s the same as it was for the original ones. It’s the only metric that should really matter.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
All anyone has to do to know if the new movies are good is bring a 4 year old.

If the kid leaves excited, jumping around and swinging an imaginary lightsaber, then the movie’s good.

It’s the same as it was for the original ones. It’s the only metric that should really matter.
Disney likes their money. Also not hard to please a 4 year old.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
Disney likes their money. Also not hard to please a 4 year old.
Right. It’s impossible to please fans who are much older and who don’t even agree on what they want, but expect the movies to be written for them.

Disney is far better off focusing on winning new fans who don’t come into it with decades of expectation. People who will accept a movie for what it is rather that what it “should be”.

Sadly, such a view often seems to elude adults.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Right. It’s impossible to please fans who are much older and who don’t even agree on what they want, but expect the movies to be written for them.

Disney is far better off focusing on winning new fans who don’t come into it with decades of expectation. People who will accept a movie for what it is rather that what it “should be”.

Sadly, such a view often seems to elude adults.
To many franchises assume they can get new fans and old ones don't matter.

Who buys the toys and merch and guess what's not selling? They already have the casuals it's Star Wars they'll turn up for anything (except Solo).

Star Wars is alive because of the hardcore. They are the 80s and 90 kids who grew up and bought the early EU merch, Star Wars was dead. If you annoy them bad enough they won't buy your stuff and they have kids now as well. Niece's and nephews in my case.

The trailer was decent and raises a few questions which will be answered if you go and watch.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] feel free to start more Star Wars threads, but I’m not interested in arguing with diatribes about how terrible you think TLJ is.

Most polls and twitter threads and such I’ve seen show more people putting LTJ in their top 3 than at the bottom and the only metric by which it “underperformed” is “compared to TFA”. By every other possible metric it hit it out of the park.

And no, they don’t have to give in to fans. Fans don’t own franchises.
Most of what I've seen in the past half a year is that hype for Star Wars has gone more to a meh level.

People are just not excited about Star Wars in general.

There are the Hardcore Star Wars lovers...and then everyone else.

the Hardcore Star Wars lovers seem to be enthralled...but everyone else...simply does not care anymore.

There's nothing left to care about.

With 4 year olds...it's not the 4 year olds...it's anyone who buys toys...and unfortunately the toy market (and probably the rest, but I just have a little idea on the toy market) is down right now in regards to Star Wars. Disney killed it in that arena. Luckily...Marvel is popping and makes up for it.

Still...if you WANT a good metric...it's not the 4 year olds...look to see how something did in China.

Star Wars is sunk in China right now...and that's at least 1/4 if not 1/3 of the money already lost.

Want excitement...see how to make it succeed in China. That can turn a movie that is just meh in the US to actually making a profit worldwide.

Let's see how the excitement gets in China over this. Toy releases can also predict popularity. There should be some idea of how it might do with sales in November. If Star Wars Toy Sales appear to be doing great, that could be a good prediction of it doing well. If it seems like the toys just aren't moving...that would probably be a bad sign.

It could do well, it could do poorly. I don't know. I think that something needs to be done to get people out of the 'meh' they feel now towards Star Wars or it's going to be a more meh type of showing at the theater. The hype train has just begun for episode IX.
 
I would not bring a 4-year old to a Star Wars movie - talk about over-stimulation. Maybe 7, but maybe not until 8 or 9.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I'm starting to get the sense that Zardnaar didn't like The Last Jedi. Just a hunch, though.
"I sense a great disturbance in the force, someone made a crap Star Wars movie".

TLJ is alright as a popcorn flick movie, as a Star Wars movie its bad, doesn't pay any respect to the previous movies (including TFA) and doesn't make much sense in a lot of places.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Most of what I've seen in the past half a year is that hype for Star Wars has gone more to a meh level.

People are just not excited about Star Wars in general.

There are the Hardcore Star Wars lovers...and then everyone else.

the Hardcore Star Wars lovers seem to be enthralled...but everyone else...simply does not care anymore.

There's nothing left to care about.

With 4 year olds...it's not the 4 year olds...it's anyone who buys toys...and unfortunately the toy market (and probably the rest, but I just have a little idea on the toy market) is down right now in regards to Star Wars. Disney killed it in that arena. Luckily...Marvel is popping and makes up for it.

Still...if you WANT a good metric...it's not the 4 year olds...look to see how something did in China.

Star Wars is sunk in China right now...and that's at least 1/4 if not 1/3 of the money already lost.

Want excitement...see how to make it succeed in China. That can turn a movie that is just meh in the US to actually making a profit worldwide.

Let's see how the excitement gets in China over this. Toy releases can also predict popularity. There should be some idea of how it might do with sales in November. If Star Wars Toy Sales appear to be doing great, that could be a good prediction of it doing well. If it seems like the toys just aren't moving...that would probably be a bad sign.

It could do well, it could do poorly. I don't know. I think that something needs to be done to get people out of the 'meh' they feel now towards Star Wars or it's going to be a more meh type of showing at the theater. The hype train has just begun for episode IX.
The hype was there (TFA), but I suppose killing of characters people cared about, replacing them with a selection that no one cares about that much (Rey is the best of the lot), 4 movies in 2.5 years (Dec 2015-May 2018) of which one was meh and one has annoyed a good chunk of the fanbase and yeah.

Ladies and gentleman, Disney!
 

Kaodi

Adventurer
Targetting the Chinese audience is not a silver bullet strategy for being "good" : look at Pacific Rim: Uprising. I enjoyed watching that film okay, but ultimately I decided it was not worth the time to watch it again. Whereas I have seen the original three times.
 

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