Spoilers Star Wars: The Acolyte [Spoilers]

[Rabulias]

We knew that they were more long game thinkers who disapproved of Luke going to rescue his friends in the short term. We knew that Obi-Wan was willing to distort the truth and then rationalize it poorly rather than level with Luke. So, yeah, there are questions about just how upstanding they are.

As for not wanting Luke to rescue Han, Leia, and Chewie, Yoda and Obi-Wan were completely justified, I believe, in having concerns about a powerful Force user with minimal training entering into a trap set by the Sith. I will note that they still let Luke make his choice and go. If Yoda wanted to, he could have stopped him from leaving in any number of ways.

I will agree that the prequel trilogy does raise some difficult questions about the Jedi Order's policies. But just within the original trilogy, Yoda and Obi-Wan give no basis to tarnish the Jedi Order. Keeping Luke's (and Leia's) parentage a secret was on the two of them, not the Jedi Order.

 

[ART!]

I've read very little Expanded Universe stuff, but I always imagined the Jedi as initially being like hedge knights. Very slowly over time they became an organization, which got increasing tied to other large organizations, and then we get to the Prequel era where they are very clearly not what they used to be or should be. They got too hidebound and too tied to power. I see the "taking kids as young as possible and indoctrinating them" and "no attachments" as a part of that late-era corruption and having lost their way.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yoda and Obi-Wan give no basis to tarnish the Jedi Order

Don't they? Maybe they individually don't, though both are needlessly curmudgeonly imho, keep secrets they probably shouldn't, and give advice that whilst arguably reasonable, isn't ultimately great advice. And the movies do give us reason to tarnish the Order, somewhat. What we learned in the OT is that:

A) The Jedi failed and got wiped out. They had essentially one job (stop the Sith), and they didn't do it.

B) The main villain until RotJ was trained as a Jedi. As of the OT it's unclear why he turned to the dark side, but people are going to assume there was a reason, not mere whimsy.

As such, even in the pre-PT EU novels, the old Jedi order didn't tend to be presented as a wholly positive, and I would argue that that was because the sort of people who loved SW enough to write books about it tended to detect that was something kinda fishy about the Jedi. Vader's fall is definitely part of that.

And Lucas then absolutely confirmed that with the PT.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When nine hundred years old you are, justification to be curmudgeonly you will not need.

 

[Micah Sweet]

When nine hundred years old you are, justification to be curmudgeonly you will not need.

I hardly need it now.

 

[Rabulias]

What we learned in the OT is that:

A) The Jedi failed and got wiped out. They had essentially one job (stop the Sith), and they didn't do it.

There is no mention of the Sith in the OT. All we know (admittedly from Obi-Wan) is that "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

B) The main villain until RotJ was trained as a Jedi. As of the OT it's unclear why he turned to the dark side, but people are going to assume there was a reason, not mere whimsy.

We are told (again by Obi-Wan) that "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force" (I assume seduced by power) and he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."

The interesting thing I note is that Obi-Wan says "the Jedi Knights," not "the Jedi Order." To me, the OT paints the Jedi as a loose "organization" at best. I think that helps explain how the Empire could destroy them in the span of less than 20 years.

In the PT, establishing the Jedi Order as a massive organization (not to mention impressively powering up Jedi abilities) required the story to beef up the explanation of how the Empire could take out the Jedi. Weakness within the Jedi Order helps do this.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There is no mention of the Sith in the OT. All we know (admittedly from Obi-Wan) is that "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

Sure, but it's the same deal either way.

Also, somehow basically everyone who knew much about SW knew about the Sith and they featured a ton in the pre-PT EU. I presume this is because of stuff like the 1976 novelization of SW, which mentioned them (and it presumably got them from earlier drafts of the SW script). And yes that's not a typo, it was released before A New Hope! And in the 1990s they were huge in the SW comics.

The real nailing down of what the Sith beyond "evil Force-users" were was largely down to the PT and KotOR though.

The interesting thing I note is that Obi-Wan says "the Jedi Knights," not "the Jedi Order." To me, the OT paints the Jedi as a loose "organization" at best. I think that helps explain how the Empire could destroy them in the span of less than 20 years.

Yeah I agree and this was a fairly common understanding of the Jedi prior to the PT, you can particularly see this in "imitation Jedi" in other SF (including several TT RPGs), where they very much tend to lean into "wandering ronin/knights errant"-type vibes (albeit usually very much good guys). However I would push back slightly on the Knights/Order distinction - that wasn't really more than semantics until The Phantom Menace came out.

Lucas' own vision in 1977 was apparently that there were "hundreds of thousands" of Jedi prior to being purged (it's on Wookiepedia and cited there), though, so it's not true that the PT made them seem bigger and more in need of a real plan to eliminate. On the contrary the PT actually made the Jedi Order a lot smaller than original envisioned!

 

[Ryujin]

Sure, but it's the same deal either way.

Also, somehow basically everyone who knew much about SW knew about the Sith and they featured a ton in the pre-PT EU. I presume this is because of stuff like the 1976 novelization of SW, which mentioned them (and it presumably got them from earlier drafts of the SW script). And yes that's not a typo, it was released before A New Hope! And in the 1990s they were huge in the SW comics.

The real nailing down of what the Sith beyond "evil Force-users" were was largely down to the PT and KotOR though.


Yeah I agree and this was a fairly common understanding of the Jedi prior to the PT, you can particularly see this in "imitation Jedi" in other SF (including several TT RPGs), where they very much tend to lean into "wandering ronin/knights errant"-type vibes (albeit usually very much good guys). However I would push back slightly on the Knights/Order distinction - that wasn't really more than semantics until The Phantom Menace came out.

Lucas' own vision in 1977 was apparently that there were "hundreds of thousands" of Jedi prior to being purged (it's on Wookiepedia and cited there), though, so it's not true that the PT made them seem bigger and more in need of a real plan to eliminate. On the contrary the PT actually made the Jedi Order a lot smaller than original envisioned!

Interesting. Apparently I have a first edition, with copyright 1976, that I got for Christmas way back when. Sadly, the dust jacket was torn and lost years ago. I'll need to reread it.

"They were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes." - Leah Organa of Alderaan, Senator

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Interesting. Apparently I have a first edition, with copyright 1976, that I got for Christmas way back when. Sadly, the dust jacket was torn and lost years ago. I'll need to reread it.

"They were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes." - Leah Organa of Alderaan, Senator

LEAH oh wow lol. Incredible. Classic novelization stuff.

 

[Ryujin]

LEAH oh wow lol. Incredible. Classic novelization stuff.

That's the last line of the prologue. I did a quick search to find where I had hidden it