Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Star Wars has never been popular in China. Neither has Harry Potter. Or a bunch of other things which are popular in the west. This is not an indictment of the property.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Guys, if you want yet another “I hate TLJ” thread, please start one. Or post in one of the old ones. Let’s not threadcrap.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
To many franchises assume they can get new fans and old ones don't matter.
With respect, you missed a point.

"The fans" are not a unit. The folks who grew up on it *DO NOT AGREE* on what a new movie should be like. The franchise doesn't assume the old ones dont' matter. They recognize that they are not of one single mind, and cannot be pleased all at once.

The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.

Who buys the toys and merch and guess what's not selling?
With respect - you seem to forget your history. Traditionally, "the fans" were kids, and the merch was bought by parents for children. Having 40+ year old guys buying merch is relatively new, by comparison. The merch fortune was originally built on parents buying for kids, long before the EU existed.

Star Wars is alive because of the hardcore.
Nah. Star Wars is alive due to it having a basic story that reflects pretty much all the adventure stories of old. It was too big well before the 90s to think that it'd sleep forever after.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
This. If they cave to the people that hated TLJ and undo it’s legacy, I’m out. Anyone can be the hero. That’s the point of the last movie. If they reverse that, then this whole trilogy has been pointless BS.
Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I would not bring a 4-year old to a Star Wars movie - talk about over-stimulation. Maybe 7, but maybe not until 8 or 9.

Nah, I took my then 4 year old daughter to the Last Jedi and she loved it. This was after having watched The Force Awakens about a hundred times at home, so there was no way she was going to wait. Same with this one...she’s 5 now and I showed her the trailer and she was immediately excited.

But my point isn’t about the specific age...my point is that these movies are meant to capture the imaginations of kids. The same way the originals were meant to.

TLJ is alright as a popcorn flick movie, as a Star Wars movie its bad
Wait...aren’t Star Wars films the very definition of popcorn flicks?
 
Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.
I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.
 
Nah, I took my then 4 year old daughter to the Last Jedi and she loved it. This was after having watched The Force Awakens about a hundred times at home, so there was no way she was going to wait. Same with this one...she’s 5 now and I showed her the trailer and she was immediately excited.

But my point isn’t about the specific age...my point is that these movies are meant to capture the imaginations of kids. The same way the originals were meant to.
I will leave the age question aside and I agree with your point, and rephrase it thusly: the films are meant to capture the imaginations of people in general, but especially kids.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I will leave the age question aside and I agree with your point, and rephrase it thusly: the films are meant to capture the imaginations of people in general, but especially kids.

Yeah, I think the films can absolutely be enjoyed by adults. The only issue is that many adults who are likely to go just bring so much baggage with them as an audience. That’s by no means universal, and baggage isn’t exactly the perfect term for it...but it’s what comes to mind.

I feel like part of the issue with these movies is that they simply can’t be what many want them to be, and that’s mostly due to the viewers. They can’t be new to anyone who grew up on the originals...and that newness is what people are really looking for.

I noticed this once my kid saw The Force Awakens and she was as amazed by it as I was by the original. Rey was her hero the same way Luke was mine.

And I think that’s what’s lost on a lot of people who complain about the movies.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Yeah, I think the films can absolutely be enjoyed by adults. The only issue is that many adults who are likely to go just bring so much baggage with them as an audience. That’s by no means universal, and baggage isn’t exactly the perfect term for it...but it’s what comes to mind.

I feel like part of the issue with these movies is that they simply can’t be what many want them to be, and that’s mostly due to the viewers. They can’t be new to anyone who grew up on the originals...and that newness is what people are really looking for.

I noticed this once my kid saw The Force Awakens and she was as amazed by it as I was by the original. Rey was her hero the same way Luke was mine.

And I think that’s what’s lost on a lot of people who complain about the movies.
TFA is a decent movie though, bit repetitive but kids would have liked anything Star Wars related. I would have used a female lead myself, mostly because its different compared to the other 6 movies. I would have paid a bit more attention to what happened in the previous movies though and tied the world to the older movies a bit better. Solo did a decent job in that regard for example;
 

Zardnaar

Hero
With respect, you missed a point.

"The fans" are not a unit. The folks who grew up on it *DO NOT AGREE* on what a new movie should be like. The franchise doesn't assume the old ones dont' matter. They recognize that they are not of one single mind, and cannot be pleased all at once.

The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.



With respect - you seem to forget your history. Traditionally, "the fans" were kids, and the merch was bought by parents for children. Having 40+ year old guys buying merch is relatively new, by comparison. The merch fortune was originally built on parents buying for kids, long before the EU existed.



Nah. Star Wars is alive due to it having a basic story that reflects pretty much all the adventure stories of old. It was too big well before the 90s to think that it'd sleep forever after.

Star Wars was dead, and an author named Timothey Zahn wrote a novel called Heir to the Empire. It basically brought Star Wars back and lead to further novels, comics, video games etc and the 1st new Star Wars footage shot since the OT (an ad and video game).

Then Lucas rereleased the movies and did TPM.

The only thing Star Wars related that was still going in 1990 for example was an RPG game and the company gave the author some RPG material. Palpatines name along with Coruscant and a few other bits and pieces came from the old Legends material.
 
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Zardnaar

Hero
Yeah. There were too many good bits of message in TLJ for throwing them out to be a good move, story wise.

I also don't think pandering to a bunch of people who can't stand a female lead is a good move. Worldwide, TLJ grossed over $1.3 billion. That is in no way a failure that needs to be walked back.
Messaging isn't worth a crap plot, boring lead, and not paying attention to world building. From the trailer they seem to be rying to fix a few things. The trailer is decent, makes me want to see IX and that is what its job is for. TFA was a good movie and had positive messaging in it so its not hard. Daisy is the best actor they have had yet as a lead, but the material they gave here isn't great she won't be replacing Han/Luke/Leia anytime soon though in terms of popularity.
 

GreyLord

Adventurer
I'm getting to see it whether I really want to or not. One of the perks of my life I enjoy I guess. I hope I enjoy it...but I have much lower hopes for this movie than I have for other movies, which means I can be impressed, not that I will be.

I just hope they don't have jokes that are going to be dated before the movie is even released this time around.

I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.
This was a pretty big mistake I think JJ and the rest have backed off from in recent months. I think when you have half the comments coming from women and then telling them that they hate themselves...and it's coming from a white male telling these women this...that it didn't go over all that well with the general audiences as they slowly found out about this. They took a cursory look at demographics that were criticizing without taking a broader look before commenting.

Today, with the exception of one toxic individual (which, I haven't a clue why they keep him around, he's managed to insult just about EVERY demographic out there, women, minorities, etc), I don't see anyone at or connected to Lucasarts saying anything of the sort recently. I think they've taken some of the legitimate criticisms into mind.

However, I think with the break coming, the TYPE of reset that will be done will be dependent on how IX does at the theater. If it does well, it probably will just be a reset of time to let things settle and build off what's been created. Probably new series on streaming to add onto the new EU along with at least a trilogy of movies if not more in the like which Netflix and other streaming services make. A Cinematic release would come eventually as well, just not as fast as the SW movies have recently to build time and hype about it. IF it crashes or bombs, that reset could be one that is a remake of the originals or prequels, or even a reset of the ST itself.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that.
The film is not perfect, of course. There's legitimate criticism to be had of any film.

The implication is not about individuals. It is that, in aggregate, misogyny drove more of the negative assessments than legitimate critique did. Now, you *admit* that you are only "peripherally" aware of it, even years after, so I don't see as you have context to be able to judge that statement. I, honestly, don't have the time or inclination to educate you and re-litigate how much of this was driven by men who are not so much thoughtful movie critics as they are uncomfortable with the changing social landscape around them.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The actors of your favorite characters age and die. The studio cannot focus on them forever.
James Bond, Ghostbusters, Batman, Spiderman, and a plethora of other movies which focus on characters, but change the actors disagree with that statement. I'm not saying they should have replaced Luke, Leia, Han and the rest with other actors, but they could have focused on them forever if they wanted to.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
The film is not perfect, of course. There's legitimate criticism to be had of any film.

The implication is not about individuals. It is that, in aggregate, misogyny drove more of the negative assessments than legitimate critique did. Now, you *admit* that you are only "peripherally" aware of it, even years after, so I don't see as you have context to be able to judge that statement. I, honestly, don't have the time or inclination to educate you and re-litigate how much of this was driven by men who are not so much thoughtful movie critics as they are uncomfortable with the changing social landscape around them.
There was an element of that sure but even the female hardcore fans dislike TLJ. They're salty to.

If you don't like powerful women beats me how you are a hardcore fan anyway. First two movies in the OT you may have thought Leia was the rebel leader. In the third movie it was Mon Mothma.

In the old legends material the New Republic had back to back female leaders. They also had great female Jedi (Bastila Shan, Mara, Jaina, Leia), and female Sith (Lumiya, Zannah). Then again they had poor characters like Daala as well and Darth Talon was kinda lame as well.

If the movie bombs (which I doubt) I expect they will do a different era like the Knights of the Old Republic era. Next trilogy will be the Game of Thrones people and they are good at world building and interesting characters.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
There was an element of that sure but even the female hardcore fans dislike TLJ.
Citation please.

I mean, I know there are people who disliked it. I know some of those were women. And some of the women were "hardcore fans" (whatever that means - it is easier to make blanket statements about a group when the group isn't well defined). But to state this as a general thing? Who the heck are you to speak for an entire demographic?

Rottentomatoes and metacritic are, alas, gameable platforms, so their data is of questionable accuracy.

How about we look at some exit survey data? As in, surveys of people as they left the theater at the time?

"...on ComScore/Screen Engine, Last Jedi earned an 89% overall positive score and a five-star rating from moviegoers. That’s in the wheelhouse of what Force Awakens earned (90% overall positive/ 4 1/2 stars) and Rogue One (91% positive, 4 1/2 stars). These are scientific, statistically accumulated audience exit polls that studios can take to the bank, and which they rely upon to deconstruct various elements of a film’s opening."


https://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/

"Interestingly, the 89 percent figure stays the same whether respondents described themselves as a "big" Star Wars fan or a regular fan. Even among self-described non-Star Wars fans — whom, one presumes, must have wandered into the wrong theater — 81 percent loved or liked The Last Jedi. "

(Bolding mine - it seems to put a hole in your assertion above)

https://mashable.com/2017/12/20/last-jedi-poll/#RyT05h4uZiqF

Again, in the end, the film grossed $1.3 billion dollars. This is not a failure by any reasonable measure. Or do you content that folks spent over a billion dollars... hate watching?
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.
I quite liked that one, I think its the accent and "that is interesting lets follow it up- oh wait".
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The ones in youtube, my Star Wars RPG group, various ones online. Not all of them of course its 50/50 or 60/40 something like that. Just an opinion and from what I have seen.
"Anecdote" is not the singular of "data" See above - I extended the point about citation. Among self-avowed fans of Star Wars, 89% of them liked or loved the movie at the time.
 

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