Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Istbor

Explorer
If Rey smacks down Kylo where is the epic story in that, its already been established that she is more powerful than him, and why do you need to bother training Jedi a'la the other 6 movies.

If she isn't a Skywalker whats the point of the 1st 6 movies? If she is a Skywalker why bother claiming her parents are nobodies only to retcon/swerve the audience in IX.
I feel like part of this new story is of the Jedi learning that their old ways of training were flawed. That this more loose form and self-discovery is a better more natural way. That is at least something I have gleaned from the movies at least.

And also, why? Why is the audience expected to take the word of Kylo Ren as Gospel? Who cares if he said they were nobodies. Why does he have to be telling the truth there? Not even the good guys in Star Wars like to tell the naked truth, and we are expecting a villain to. One who's specific goal at the time is to try and convince Rey into joining him.

I totally expect that Kylo could be either lying, or maybe doesn't even know the truth himself. I certainly wouldn't feel some sense of betrayal if they came out and said Rey has ties to the Skywalkers. It's pretty laughable in fact to feel hurt over something like this.

First prove to me that Kylo knows all, and it telling the truth to Rey about her heritage. Then we can talk about Retcons, and swerves.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I feel like part of this new story is of the Jedi learning that their old ways of training were flawed. That this more loose form and self-discovery is a better more natural way. That is at least something I have gleaned from the movies at least.

And also, why? Why is the audience expected to take the word of Kylo Ren as Gospel? Who cares if he said they were nobodies. Why does he have to be telling the truth there? Not even the good guys in Star Wars like to tell the naked truth, and we are expecting a villain to. One who's specific goal at the time is to try and convince Rey into joining him.

I totally expect that Kylo could be either lying, or maybe doesn't even know the truth himself. I certainly wouldn't feel some sense of betrayal if they came out and said Rey has ties to the Skywalkers. It's pretty laughable in fact to feel hurt over something like this.

First prove to me that Kylo knows all, and it telling the truth to Rey about her heritage. Then we can talk about Retcons, and swerves.
My interpretation of the scene where Kylo confirms that Rey's parents were nobodies is that he was basically telling her what she already had to assume, deep down. Not so much that he knew it was the truth because he had some kind of first hand knowledge of it, but because it's the most sensible answer to the question. Only bad parents would leave their child in such a place under such conditions. He flat out says she already knows the answer.

Why would he actually know anything about her parents when no one else seems to? The answer is he doesn't, he was just making an educated guess, one that Rey would have made if she wasn't so emotionally vested in the answer.

Now...having said all that, I liked the idea that she's just a random girl thrown into all this. I think it works on many levels, and I think it was a brave swerve to take from a writing standpoint. Personally, I liked the Last Jedi so much because of its ability to actually surprise me. Pretty impressive for a Star Wars movie, especially when compared to The Force Awakens, which, although perfectly enjoyable, can basically be predicted beat for beat as you watch. And so can just about all the other SW movies, really.

But if they decide to reveal that Kylo was mistaken, and Rey does have some mysterious and important heritage....I'll be okay with that, too, as long as they handle it well. Theories that she's a Palpatine or some kind of clone or whatever.....maybe they can make a cool story based on those ideas. I'd be cool with that. And I don't think it really diminishes the message of The Last Jedi if they do so.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
My interpretation of the scene where Kylo confirms that Rey's parents were nobodies is that he was basically telling her what she already had to assume, deep down. Not so much that he knew it was the truth because he had some kind of first hand knowledge of it, but because it's the most sensible answer to the question. Only bad parents would leave their child in such a place under such conditions. He flat out says she already knows the answer.

Why would he actually know anything about her parents when no one else seems to? The answer is he doesn't, he was just making an educated guess, one that Rey would have made if she wasn't so emotionally vested in the answer.

Now...having said all that, I liked the idea that she's just a random girl thrown into all this. I think it works on many levels, and I think it was a brave swerve to take from a writing standpoint. Personally, I liked the Last Jedi so much because of its ability to actually surprise me. Pretty impressive for a Star Wars movie, especially when compared to The Force Awakens, which, although perfectly enjoyable, can basically be predicted beat for beat as you watch. And so can just about all the other SW movies, really.
I like the idea of it too. Finding a home, a family, a purpose beyond just surviving as a scavenger is the central challenge facing her. Confronted with the likely reality that her parents were nobodies and never coming back and that the Jedi hold no easy answers (even the dark side she encounters is more a cypher than an easy path to answers), Rey is forced to define herself rather than be defined. And I hope it stays that way in the next movie.
 

MarkB

Hero
Mind me asking did you notice the plot hles and questions the Last Jedi raised? I mean in universe Star Wars lore about how the Dark side is the quick and easy path,
TLJ certainly supports that. Ben Solo was twisted to the dark side by Snoke's long-distance influence without ever even meeting him, his final fall was precipitated when Luke Skywalker, paragon of Jedi-ness, gave in to fear and was tempted to strike him down, and when he left to become Kylo Ren he took half of Luke's other students with him. Turning to the dark side is easy.

or how using star cruisers as hyperspace weapons makes a lot of things pointless like the assualt on Star Killer Base, or the death star attacks in the OT.
It's one instance where that worked, using a top-of-the-line hard-as-nails Mon Calamari cruiser. We've no idea under what circumstances it could be replicated.

Can you understand the way Rey was booked/written that with her power levels it also makes a few things pointless since she is kinda like superman but without kryptonite.
What power levels? In TLJ pretty much the only thing she does with her powers is levitate a bunch of rocks. She's shown to be on a par with Kylo Ren in combat as they battle Snoke's bodyguards, but certainly not more powerful, and she was absolutely helpless against Snoke, unable to resist him even slightly.

A simple question is who is you main villain there is no Tarkin/Vader/Emperor equivalent as the ones they did have got jobbed out or used as comic relief (Hux, Phasma), or they have been made to look like chumps 2 movies in a row (Kylo).
Tarkin died in Episode IV. How is he any more a "main villain" than Snoke? Kylo was fooled by Luke, but he's still risen to become the supreme leader of the First Order, wiping out all but one small transport ship's worth of the Resistance in the process.

If Rey smacks down Kylo where is the epic story in that, its already been established that she is more powerful than him, and why do you need to bother training Jedi a'la the other 6 movies.
Where has it been established that she's more powerful? Their struggle for the saber in TLJ indicates that they're pretty much perfectly evenly matched - neither can overpower the other, and in the end it's the saber that breaks.

If she isn't a Skywalker whats the point of the 1st 6 movies?
Were they pointless before Rey existed? I thought they were the tale of the rise of a great tyranny, and its eventual defeat by a small force of heroic rebels.

How does Rey being a Skywalker make there be any more point to them? Skywalker isn't some long, noble legacy. Luke and Leia's daddy was Darth Anakin, and Anakin's daddy was the Force. If the Force needs a new Chosen One, it doesn't have to wait for another Skywalker - it can quite happily knock up some other innocent female. Heck, maybe that's what happened with Rey, except nobody noticed this time because her mother was in a sexually active relationship.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I like the idea of it too. Finding a home, a family, a purpose beyond just surviving as a scavenger is the central challenge facing her. Confronted with the likely reality that her parents were nobodies and never coming back and that the Jedi hold no easy answers (even the dark side she encounters is more a cypher than an easy path to answers), Rey is forced to define herself rather than be defined. And I hope it stays that way in the next movie.
Absolutely agree. She comes right out and says to Luke "I need you to show me my place in all this" and the whole point of the movie is that no one can do that for you, you have to do it yourself.

Given the choice, I think I'd prefer it remain that way....but I wouldn't say that it has to be so. I'm kind of hoping she takes the Skywalker name out of respect for Luke, and that's what the title of the film is referring to. We'll see.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
TLJ certainly supports that. Ben Solo was twisted to the dark side by Snoke's long-distance influence without ever even meeting him, his final fall was precipitated when Luke Skywalker, paragon of Jedi-ness, gave in to fear and was tempted to strike him down, and when he left to become Kylo Ren he took half of Luke's other students with him. Turning to the dark side is easy.


It's one instance where that worked, using a top-of-the-line hard-as-nails Mon Calamari cruiser. We've no idea under what circumstances it could be replicated.


What power levels? In TLJ pretty much the only thing she does with her powers is levitate a bunch of rocks. She's shown to be on a par with Kylo Ren in combat as they battle Snoke's bodyguards, but certainly not more powerful, and she was absolutely helpless against Snoke, unable to resist him even slightly.


Tarkin died in Episode IV. How is he any more a "main villain" than Snoke? Kylo was fooled by Luke, but he's still risen to become the supreme leader of the First Order, wiping out all but one small transport ship's worth of the Resistance in the process.


Where has it been established that she's more powerful? Their struggle for the saber in TLJ indicates that they're pretty much perfectly evenly matched - neither can overpower the other, and in the end it's the saber that breaks.


Were they pointless before Rey existed? I thought they were the tale of the rise of a great tyranny, and its eventual defeat by a small force of heroic rebels.

How does Rey being a Skywalker make there be any more point to them? Skywalker isn't some long, noble legacy. Luke and Leia's daddy was Darth Anakin, and Anakin's daddy was the Force. If the Force needs a new Chosen One, it doesn't have to wait for another Skywalker - it can quite happily knock up some other innocent female. Heck, maybe that's what happened with Rey, except nobody noticed this time because her mother was in a sexually active relationship.
Remember in ESB how Luke struggled with lifting rocks and Yoda was surprised about him being able to nudge the X-Wing. Also Yoda hmering on about control you must learn control and the dark side is quicker than easier?

If Rey was Ray it would still be bad as they've ignoring major tropes established in the 1st 6 movies. It's why they should have made Rey a Jedi Knight as she is using Jedi Knight/Master level of powers. There's not much in the way of character development because she has been booked like super women right from the get go. Great pilot, untrained, great at plotting hyperspace 1st time despite Han slapping Luke down for the same thing.

If they didn't give her a desert scavenger background like say Han in ANH no problem. It's mostly comparing what came before in canon. Legends mostly respected this as well. So you have a heap of expectations and world building in regards to how the force works and they basically ignore all of it.

I'm kinda reactionary in some ways but if you want to do something new make ur own stuff, if it's an established franchise you need to play ball with that franchises lore IMHO See 4E as an example.

Rey would also be better if she was darkside. Or she has trouble controlling her powers as it would also tie it back on Yoda's training.
 
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MarkB

Hero
Remember in ESB how Luke struggled with lifting rocks and Yoda was surprised about him being able to nudge the X-Wing. Also Yoda hmering on about control you must learn control and the dark side is quicker than easier?
I remember Luke learning, fairly quickly, to lift multiple rocks plus R2D2, and Yoda being disappointed when he failed to do more than nudge the X-Wing. Luke's issue was that he had trouble believing in the power of the Force, and with maintaining self-discipline. Rey's issues are different - she has trouble with valuing herself and letting go of the past.

If they didn't give her a desert scavenger background like say Han in ANH no problem. It's mostly comparing what came before in canon. Legends mostly respected this as well. So you have a heap of expectations and world building in regards to how the force works and they basically ignore all of it.
Expectations is one thing. But you seem to be piling on so many of them that you've built up a headcanon of exactly how the Star Wars universe works, and are taking offense at anything which doesn't match your specifications. I've watched the same movies, seen the same worldbuilding, yet I'm not seeing the glaring inconsistencies which seem so obvious to you.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
I remember Luke learning, fairly quickly, to lift multiple rocks plus R2D2, and Yoda being disappointed when he failed to do more than nudge the X-Wing. Luke's issue was that he had trouble believing in the power of the Force, and with maintaining self-discipline. Rey's issues are different - she has trouble with valuing herself and letting go of the past.


Expectations is one thing. But you seem to be piling on so many of them that you've built up a headcanon of exactly how the Star Wars universe works, and are taking offense at anything which doesn't match your specifications. I've watched the same movies, seen the same worldbuilding, yet I'm not seeing the glaring inconsistencies which seem so obvious to you.
Luke struggled to lift those rocks Rey lifted a large amount with a few hours training. Luke had 3 years of practice by the time of ESB. He didn't really use force powers in ANH.

Anakin had a decades training between TPM and AotC. See a pattern emerging here. They did give an explanation (in a book not movie) but the explanation is lame. They could do small tweaks like say a Rey struggled to lift the rocks loses her temper and they all go flying. She's doing Jedi master type things with no/minimal training. Snoke even implied Kylo needs more training. But you don't if you're Rey that's the issue she doesn't fit the established tropes of the universe.

Do you think my she loses here temper idea would improve the scene, it plays into Yoda's warnings about the dark side being quicker and easier. Makes her a bit more vulnerable to temptation etc.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?
 

MarkB

Hero
Luke struggled to lift those rocks Rey lifted a large amount with a few hours training. Luke had 3 years of practice by the time of ESB. He didn't really use force powers in ANH.
Force powers didn't really exist in ANH. The whole telekinesis thing was only introduced in ESB.

Anakin had a decades training between TPM and AotC.
And even without those decades of training he's already an ace pod-racing pilot as a pre-teen. Wasn't that exactly the criticism you levelled at Rey regarding her piloting in TFA?

See a pattern emerging here. They did give an explanation (in a book not movie) but the explanation is lame. They could do small tweaks like say a Rey struggled to lift the rocks loses her temper and they all go flying. She's doing Jedi master type things with no/minimal training. Snoke even implied Kylo needs more training. But you don't if you're Rey that's the issue she doesn't fit the established tropes of the universe.

Do you think my she loses here temper idea would improve the scene, it plays into Yoda's warnings about the dark side being quicker and easier. Makes her a bit more vulnerable to temptation etc.
Again, you don't seem to want a sequel, you want a re-make. Unless the characters have the exact same flaws and struggle with the exact same issues and overcome them in the exact same way on the exact same schedule, it's not good enough for your expectations.

Rey has issues. She has difficulties. They're just not the exact same issues and difficulties that Luke had.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?
He used the force obviously but it's a lower level of force use than telekinesis or force lightning or mind trick. In RPG terms he blew a force point.

Kid Anakin was also stupid. Generally the OT 3 are more popular characters for some strange mysterious reason and it's due to things like this. Not to many people like kid Anakin or even adult Anakin because of those movies. I like Rey more than movie Anakin's. Daisy is a better actor than Hayden/Mark she's very good at facial expressions. Few tweaks would have made her great IMHO.
 
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Zardnaar

Hero
Says who?
Things like Clone Wars cartoon. Force sensitives have minor abilities like precognition etc but you need training to do much. The youngling that got smoked in RotS for example had lightsaber training. Han can't do much with one for example.

Or Yoda be Palpatine or Yoda cf Luke ESB. That's what I mean by tropes. Rey's using Jedi Master type powers. Mass telekinesis, force jumping TIE fighters. Luke jumped out of a trap by comparison.

If Rey was a Jedi Knight who lost her temper on occasion and was a survivor of the Jedi Academy it would give her a connection to the OT characters and Kylo explain a lot, and wouldn't run off to some dude she met that killed his dad in front of her.
 
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ccs

39th lv DM
Force powers didn't really exist in ANH.
Yeah, except for:
* Vader force choking Admiral Motti.
* "These aren't the droids you're looking for ~"
* The speed Obi-Wan wields that lightsaber in the cantina scene. Talk about the Quickdraw feat....
* Luke sensing the training balls shot & being able to block it.
* Obi-Wan sensing the death of Alderan.
*Obi-Wan being able to sense Vaders' presence.
* Vader sensing Obi-Wans' presence.
* Obi-Wans disappearing corpse trick.
* Obi-Wan talking to Luke during the trench run.
* Luke "using the Force" to guide his torpedo shot into the exhaust port.

Did I miss any?

** Oh, and the best use ever: Vader convincing you he's THE baddest ass movie villain of all time - just by stepping through that hatch on the Tantive IV.


The whole telekinesis thing was only introduced in ESB.
* Vader force choking Admiral Motti.
* Luke "using the Force" to guide his torpedo shot into the exhaust port.
If these aren't examples of TK....
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Luke didn't use the force to move the torpedo just aim it. His powers were a lot more restrained as well.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Things like Clone Wars cartoon. Force sensitives have minor abilities like precognition etc but you need training to do much. The youngling that got smoked in RotS for example had lightsaber training. Han can't do much with one for example.
Cite. Where does it say that moving a rock is a higher level force power than aiming a torpedo at high speed?
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Cite. Where does it say that moving a rock is a higher level force power than aiming a torpedo at high speed?
Just generally how Jedi are potrayed in Legends and Canon. Trainings a big part of it you don't see Luke in a lightsaber duel or using mind trick in ANH. You don't see Anakin busting out force lightning or telekinesis untrained in TPM. Early on the force seems more subtle. You don't just pick up a lightsaber untrained and duel a trained whatever Kylo is. Or use telekinesis and win, Luke could barely pull his saber out of snow.

Anakin and a Luke both lost limbs taking on trained force users, Rey kinda wins. She's pulling stuff Anakin can't do with 10 years training. Luke had artoo plot hyperspace for him.

And trainings a big part of the OT, prequels etc in canon and legends.

Rey's pulling off better than Jedi Knight and Sith apprentice type stuff and pulling Jedi master force jumps over TIE fighters.

Ask yourself in universe why bother being trained. They didn't provide an explanation in the movies, they did in the books but that reason contradicts Yoda's teachings on the dark side being quicker, easier. Nope just be Rey and download it. Why train when a force meld can give you Jedi Knight/Master powers.

They could just have made Rey the galaxies youngest ever Jedi Knight/Master she's on a different level than Luke at the end of Episode VI where he becomes a Jedi Knight although I suppose he might have been one start of RotJ. She's also ahead of Anakin in power at least on screen power cartoon maybe not but 10 years training can none chosen one etc.

The two movies are over a matter of hours, days at best there's no time jump like APM to AotC.

It's also compelling storylines they don't have a compelling villaiain or support characters either. Phasma is a chump, Hux comic relief, Kylo is back and forth/ Darth Emo, Finn is a cowardly idiot (twice), Rose new character bad sub plot, and Pow is also an idiot. A new Vice Admiral turns up that's new, we don't care about and they kill Ackbar off screen. And they chopped Snoke in half and kill off Luke and Han.

Why are we supposed to care about these characters again? They're all unlikeable idiots villain, hero doesn't matter. Rey had her moments and isn't unlikeable as such more she is just there being a superhero. In Star Wars, no real dark side temptation, no loss of control, no anger etc. Luke got angry beat Vader. Anakin gave into his anger and put in a good showing vs a Jedi Knight borderline Master. These are Star Wars tropes.

I get they need to do different stuff, but Legends had a better sexual trilogy, had a better Han origin story have they learned nothing in 25 years IRL? Legends also gave us Dark Empire though so yeah.

They had the ingredients band bollocked it up and wonder why no one wants to buy the toys etc.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So no cite then. Just more vagueness.
I did. Compare Rey with Luke and Anakin. She's doing Jedi Master stuff untrained/minimal training. I assume you have seen episodes I to VI.

It's right there on film she's next level stuff.

I'll try another approach who's more interesting Batman or Superman? And who's more popular? Superman's a bit boring yes? Batman is darker, had more flaws isn't Uber powerful?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It's right there on film she's next level stuff.
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
 

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