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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Honestly, I think when it comes to the films only, very little is codified to the extent that many seem to think. Most of it is left pretty vague. We see examples of all kinds of things, but I don't know if we need or should accept these examples as being applicable in all instances. I mean, [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] says to look at what the movies show us....and I did exactly that in my breakdown above, and I came away with a very different conclusion than he does.

And all that really means is that there's no one correct interpretation. You can mix and match different examples from the films and draw just about any conclusion you'd like. I think the only objective conclusion that we can draw is that we aren't given enough information to accurately state that the Force always works this way or that way, and there are never any exceptions.

I do think that all the extended universe stuff is a big stumbling block for many people. All the old comics and novels and video games. They want all that stuff to "matter", and the fact that it "doesn't matter" is irksome. So they tend to be more resistant to the new material by default.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
.....


Are people really debating whether or not the amount of rocks a person moved is indicative of their power?

As opposed to being a complete and total element of "writers making stuff up as needed."

We all know that the Force isn't real, right? Right?

You know, before I really get into any more discussion about whether Rey or Luke's use of the force was more "realistic," or whether it totally made sense for the Rebel Alliance to entrust some rando farmer who has never flown a space ship with one of their few operational X-Wings and a super-important mission that determined the fate of the galaxy for REASONS .... there's something I wanted to say.

Having seen all of these debates over the years, and I've spoken to many of you in person, and some of you have thought about these issues of how realistic the Force is... y'know... for hundreds or thousands of hours of your lives, I'd just like to say... GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a movie! I mean, look at you, look at the discussions you are having! You've turned an enjoyable little trilogy, that most of us enjoyed and/or bought the bedsheets for, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?

There's a whole world out there! I mean, it's just some mindless movies, dammit, IT'S JUST A FICTIONAL UNIVERSE!

And, anyway, you're probably better off, if you take it that seriously, to just save up your money and go to Disney's Galaxy's Edge. Go on. Stop complaining and just give Disney all of your money.

Because if you don't give it to them for Star Wars, you will for the Avengers.

It's worse than you think, mate. It's not just people talking about Star Wars. If you look around there's people talking about elves and wizards and dragons all over the place.
 



Zardnaar

Legend
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

....

um .....


.....

It can hardly be a coincidence that no language on Earth has ever produced the expression "as subtle as George Lucas". George Lucas is obvious. Sometimes his movies are as blunt as Will Ferrell screaming, "I LOVE KUROSAWA!" Some of his movies achieve a degree of unsophistication that can only be the result of a special effort. This ugliness arises because Lucas never met a wipe that he thought couldn't be overused in transition, and and was apparently unaware that these types of transitions can vary.

Compared to Disney Wars he was. It's more Michael Bey less Lucas. Bigger explosions, bigger ships, more force powers, less plot, less character development.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

Honestly, I think when it comes to the films only, very little is codified to the extent that many seem to think. Most of it is left pretty vague. We see examples of all kinds of things, but I don't know if we need or should accept these examples as being applicable in all instances. I mean, [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] says to look at what the movies show us....and I did exactly that in my breakdown above, and I came away with a very different conclusion than he does.

And all that really means is that there's no one correct interpretation. You can mix and match different examples from the films and draw just about any conclusion you'd like. I think the only objective conclusion that we can draw is that we aren't given enough information to accurately state that the Force always works this way or that way, and there are never any exceptions.

I do think that all the extended universe stuff is a big stumbling block for many people. All the old comics and novels and video games. They want all that stuff to "matter", and the fact that it "doesn't matter" is irksome. So they tend to be more resistant to the new material by default.

Well the extended universe lasted 30 years and feeds into audiences expectations. Sure they decleared it non canon but it doesn't make it go away. The best of it was also up there with ESB.

Disney obviously chose a different approach and hence the backlash, boycotts and financial problems (toylines, Solo). There's also an article floating around abut the typical Star Wars fan. It's a 43 year old white male and I'm younger than that so you had 30 years of experience and expectations Disney nuked. They're the ones who huy the toys, comics etc and have been doing it since the early 90s if not child hood Marvel comics.
And some of those stories were very good. Knights of the Old Republic, Thrawn Trilogy/Duology, anything by Zahn/ Drew Kapeshyn, Han Solo Trilogy. They also had worse than TLJ but it's open season on that stuff as well.

Disney can do what they want it's there franchise now. Doesn't mean you have to buy into it. Haven't bought any of the new novel or comics just read the wiki. It's just fatigue 25 years of novels don't really want to start over an do it all over again especially when the new novels aren't that well regarded even if you like the new movies.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
At Billd91

Yep and two of them are trash as well, worse than TLJ which can at least Stan on it's own as an ok movie it just doesn't play nice with the OT or TFA.

Difference is if I insult Anakin, TPM or AotC I don't get called a sexist pig. All of them are worse than Rey/TLJ. RotS I put over TLJ.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

So, I'm sure this has been pointed out hundreds of times before, but one more time-

How old were you when you first saw Star Wars? The original trilogy?

Now take that, and then take in all the associated stuff with it. You know- the bedsheets. The lunchboxes. The figures and the toys that you went "pew pew pew" with.

Heck, maybe you were even the right age to go, "I wish I had an Ewok friend!" Who knows?

And then think of all of those years you had, in the wilderness, pining for anything else. Maybe a comic? Maybe a videogame (like the original vector Star Wars arcade that consumed countless of your quarters)? Maybe the whole EU?

I don't know.

But strangely, that whole ur-experience tends to resonate with a certain crowd more than others. Star Wars was great, but people tend to be a little bit blind to its shortcomings.

Like ... Mark Hamill's acting was terrible. Like really, really bad ... especially given some of his co-stars.

Like ... some terrible plot points (see what I reference above- Luke had never flown in space, and was given a friggin' X-Wing?).

Like ... it was never actually plotted out, which makes parts of it creepy. ("Daddy, if Luke and Leia are brother and sister, why did they kiss like that?")

Like ... Vader was never intended to be Luke's father in the first movie (makes sense now, doesn't it?). (Seriously, the whole Luke/Leia/Vader thing was retcon at the last minute in ESB, but no one is talking about how terrible it make ANH, are they?)



I could keep going, but it's pointless. You can't cr** on someone else's childhood- that's why we love it. It's why I love OSR/1e despite its manifold flaws, for example.

Anyway, before I finish up, it always is good to remember that it's best not to hold onto something you like too tightly, or you'll kill it. It's people that glorify the past that will keep Star Wars from a new generation. :( Let them enjoy what you did.

Saw them in VHS, I did see Jedi at the theatre. I didn't have any if the merch as a child couldn't afford it. That came in 93+.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Saw them in VHS, I did see Jedi at the theatre. I didn't have any if the merch as a child couldn't afford it. That came in 93+.

Would you stop quoting my post over and over again, please? I don’t need my phone constantly notifying me you’ve quoted my same post again.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
I can see why TFA went back to basically retell A New Hope - because that original story is powerful and just works. If you want to relaunch your franchise, you have to realize its strength. What captured a wide audience back then will capture a wide audience now. It is really secondary if this is particularly appealing to old fans or not. It's appealing to audiences in general.

The key problem that I had with TLJ was actually something carried forward with TFA, but which I didn't fully understand or grasp then. TFA was mostly disappointing to me since it felt like a retelling of A New Hope, and I've seen that story already. But the new characters seemed likeable, it was a good idea to not pick Kylo Ren that the movie is trying to sell me as someone even nastier than Darth Vader, but is actually a "wannabe". That was kinda couragous, but also kinda sensible, because you can't really one-up Vader. And having a new force sensitive hero go from nothing to Jedi looked promising. And I like female protagonists. Making another protagonist an Ex-Stormtrooper was also interesting, we hadn't really seen much of that side of the world.

The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.
It wasn'T quite as in the face in TFA, because in TFA we could still pretend there was maybe a good reason for Luke hiding away. But TLJ's reason for it just isn't satisfying.
I think one probably could tell a story where Luke Skywalker gives up on the force. But it would be its own movie, not a quick flashback, if you want me to believe and accept it.

There were other problems in TLJ that really were just TLJs.
The Momma/Telephone joke in the beginning was just too absurd, and a lot of the initial battle - and later parts of the movie - relied on the heroes and villains being incompetent. The plot on Canto relies on luck (of course, they don't find the hacker they seek, but another guy that is just as good) and incompetence (they land their shuttle in a forbidden zone), plus nonsense (animal slavery is apparently worse than child slavery, plus what is stopping anyone from capturing the animals?). The mutiny on the Resistance ships seems to only happen because the leader can't communicate with one of the more influential and respected officers.

Maybe it is rose-colored glasses, but except for the Storm Troopers constantly missing in V and VI, the Empire and the Rebellion seemed to be fairly good at the things they are supposed to be good at.
The troopers shooting in Episode IV is actually understandable - the Millennium Falcon got a tracker installed, so the rebels needed to escape to lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. Han or Luke not being qualified to run an extraction on the Death Star is not surprising - but they did fairly well.
 


Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
Honestly. Did we ever consider that all of these cool and familiar force powers are the reason Rey can use them? Because we've seen them, we love them, they evoke Jedi to a wide array. And for younger and newer audiences, it grabs attention and sticks in the mind.

I agree that trying to plot out some convoluted "This is the progression of a true Jedi!, is ridiculous. There is no metric, nor should there be. They are just cool space wizard powers. Why does that have to change? And, will it change back if Rey is shown to be a Skywalker. Will people still gnash their teeth as much. I am interested to see how many back off when they have that bloodline behind her.

Who knows. I have problems with the movie too (Cantobite!), but I still overall enjoy it, and welcome it into the saga.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I can see why TFA went back to basically retell A New Hope - because that original story is powerful and just works. If you want to relaunch your franchise, you have to realize its strength. What captured a wide audience back then will capture a wide audience now. It is really secondary if this is particularly appealing to old fans or not. It's appealing to audiences in general.

The key problem that I had with TLJ was actually something carried forward with TFA, but which I didn't fully understand or grasp then. TFA was mostly disappointing to me since it felt like a retelling of A New Hope, and I've seen that story already. But the new characters seemed likeable, it was a good idea to not pick Kylo Ren that the movie is trying to sell me as someone even nastier than Darth Vader, but is actually a "wannabe". That was kinda couragous, but also kinda sensible, because you can't really one-up Vader. And having a new force sensitive hero go from nothing to Jedi looked promising. And I like female protagonists. Making another protagonist an Ex-Stormtrooper was also interesting, we hadn't really seen much of that side of the world.

The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.
It wasn'T quite as in the face in TFA, because in TFA we could still pretend there was maybe a good reason for Luke hiding away. But TLJ's reason for it just isn't satisfying.
I think one probably could tell a story where Luke Skywalker gives up on the force. But it would be its own movie, not a quick flashback, if you want me to believe and accept it.

There were other problems in TLJ that really were just TLJs.
The Momma/Telephone joke in the beginning was just too absurd, and a lot of the initial battle - and later parts of the movie - relied on the heroes and villains being incompetent. The plot on Canto relies on luck (of course, they don't find the hacker they seek, but another guy that is just as good) and incompetence (they land their shuttle in a forbidden zone), plus nonsense (animal slavery is apparently worse than child slavery, plus what is stopping anyone from capturing the animals?). The mutiny on the Resistance ships seems to only happen because the leader can't communicate with one of the more influential and respected officers.

Maybe it is rose-colored glasses, but except for the Storm Troopers constantly missing in V and VI, the Empire and the Rebellion seemed to be fairly good at the things they are supposed to be good at.
The troopers shooting in Episode IV is actually understandable - the Millennium Falcon got a tracker installed, so the rebels needed to escape to lead the Empire to the Rebel Base. Han or Luke not being qualified to run an extraction on the Death Star is not surprising - but they did fairly well.

This TFA was decent enough, not very original but enjoyable. Its not as enjoyable rewatching it after TLJ. Theres a lot of "that's interesting, lets see what happens" and then you get TLJ. Abrams made a bit of effort at weaving in lots of plot threads to follow up on. In TLJ everyone's a failure, villains, new heroes, old ones etc. Well except Rey. Are they trying to make her look good by making everyone else look bad? Deliberately or not that is what they did. They didn't do that in the OP or PT. Leia, Han, Lando, Luke, all make the odd mistake, maybe not Leia so much but shes kinda the brains behind the operation.

You have to like some of the characters at least especially in a franchise, don't have to like all of them. Anakin was crap but you had Obi Wan, Mace Windu, Jango, Palpatine etc and Anakin was fine in the cartoons.
 
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MarkB

Legend
Well the extended universe lasted 30 years and feeds into audiences expectations. Sure they decleared it non canon but it doesn't make it go away. The best of it was also up there with ESB.

Disney obviously chose a different approach and hence the backlash, boycotts and financial problems (toylines, Solo).

The thing is, though, they really didn't. George Lucas ignored and overrode the EU just as freely, first with the prequels and then with things like the Clone Wars show. If he'd made the sequels, he'd have happily ignored the EU canon entirely.

All that Disney did was be honest and up-front about their intentions.

The problem is that the heroes of the original trilogy are basically turning into failures. They didn't beat the Empire, it is still strong in the First ORder, and it's blowing up their world. Han and Leia didn't stay together, they split over their son turning to the Dark Side. And Luke Skywalker didn'T really embrace his Jedi heritage, he gave up on it, and he abandoned his sister and best friend and the Republic in the time of their greatest need.

I know the feeling, and I've had similar misgivings myself - not about the new trilogy, but about the old EU material.

As much as I understood the attraction of putting our favourite characters through all-new adventures, and new trials and tribulations, it never sat well with me, because I felt that by the end of the original trilogy they'd earned their victory and their happily-ever-after. I think that's the main reason why, although I've enjoyed some individual EU material, I've never been an enthusiast of it as a body of work.

And frankly, what the new canon put our old beloved characters through in its backstory isn't any worse than some of what they've been through in EU material.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
The thing is, though, they really didn't. George Lucas ignored and overrode the EU just as freely, first with the prequels and then with things like the Clone Wars show. If he'd made the sequels, he'd have happily ignored the EU canon entirely.

All that Disney did was be honest and up-front about their intentions.



I know the feeling, and I've had similar misgivings myself - not about the new trilogy, but about the old EU material.

As much as I understood the attraction of putting our favourite characters through all-new adventures, and new trials and tribulations, it never sat well with me, because I felt that by the end of the original trilogy they'd earned their victory and their happily-ever-after. I think that's the main reason why, although I've enjoyed some individual EU material, I've never been an enthusiast of it as a body of work.

And frankly, what the new canon put our old beloved characters through in its backstory isn't any worse than some of what they've been through in EU material.

You tend to remember the good stuff though and never reread the bad. OT over PT is an example of that. The best of the old EU is up there with Empire and ANH, the worst of it is very very bad but you only read it once.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Riiiight, sure he didn't. Those torpedoes just naturally hung that hard right angle into the vent.

Missiles in SW can be guided just like IRL. Hell in the 90's they could put a missile down an air vent (1991). The implication was though he turned his targeting computer off and used the force to aim it. That is pretty much the implication IMHO. In RPG terms he blew a force point.
 

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