Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

pukunui

Adventurer
Hand waving travel times us fine they didn't make any effort at handwaving training time.
"They" don't have to make an effort. If *you* can handwave travel times, then *you* can handwave training times, too. None of the movies actually give any indication of how much time passes in between scenes. Rey could have spent months with Luke in TLJ, just like Luke could've spent just a few days with Yoda in ESB. There's really no way to tell how long either of them spent training.


You'll have to go through an edit out all the extraneous quotes from your previous posts. At the moment most of them are walls of quoted text.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"They" don't have to make an effort. If *you* can handwave travel times, then *you* can handwave training times, too. None of the movies actually give any indication of how much time passes in between scenes. Rey could have spent months with Luke in TLJ, just like Luke could've spent just a few days with Yoda in ESB. There's really no way to tell how long either of them spent training.
But we know from Anakin that it takes several YEARS to become a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan was still teaching him tricks and how to do things even when he was a teenager.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
But we know from Anakin that it takes several YEARS to become a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan was still teaching him tricks and how to do things even when he was a teenager.
He wasn’t really learning much by the start of II. It didn’t take all that time to get him to a certain power level or ability to use the Force to do neat tricks. He was already there as a Force User, he just wasn’t done with his training as a Jedi, which in the Old Republic was a lot more than using a lightsaber and the force.

And he does more rad force moves in II than Rey has done on screen so far. By a very wide margin.
 

pukunui

Adventurer
But we know from Anakin that it takes several YEARS to become a Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan was still teaching him tricks and how to do things even when he was a teenager.
I'd be willing to bet most of that did not involve learning how to use the Force so much as how to be a good Jedi and not fall to the dark side. Being a Jedi was as much about keeping the peace as it was about being a Force-wielding warrior. Anakin would've had to learn about conflict resolution and diplomacy as well as practicing lightsaber forms and the like. There would've been a lot of training on self-discipline and self-control as well - and training on when *not* to use the Force. Yoda dispensed with most of that for Luke's training. Luke dispensed with pretty much all of it for Rey's training. Most likely because they both realized it wasn't as important as the thousand generations of Jedi Knights before them thought it was.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
I'd be willing to bet most of that did not involve learning how to use the Force so much as how to be a good Jedi and not fall to the dark side. Being a Jedi was as much about keeping the peace as it was about being a Force-wielding warrior. Anakin would've had to learn about conflict resolution and diplomacy as well as practicing lightsaber forms and the like. There would've been a lot of training on self-discipline and self-control as well - and training on when *not* to use the Force. Yoda dispensed with most of that for Luke's training. Luke dispensed with pretty much all of it for Rey's training. Most likely because they both realized it wasn't as important as the thousand generations of Jedi Knights before them thought it was.
Yoda warnings quick and easy leads to the dark side. I don't think they rush training that much even the Sith.

Seems it's still canon that Mauls training took decades as well. So did Palpatines. And Anakin's etc. And Dooku.

Rey's the odd one out by a lot lol. Something doesn't seem right here.
 
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MarkB

Hero
"They" don't have to make an effort. If *you* can handwave travel times, then *you* can handwave training times, too. None of the movies actually give any indication of how much time passes in between scenes. Rey could have spent months with Luke in TLJ, just like Luke could've spent just a few days with Yoda in ESB. There's really no way to tell how long either of them spent training.
That's not really true, because Rey's training is given a timeline due to her Force-visions with Kylo Ren. The first one occurs before Luke agrees to train her, and it happens just as Kylo is undergoing surgery to his facial scar, after his bombing run on the Raddus. The events of Rey's training with Luke take place over the same time period as the events of the rest of the movie, and I don't think there's any way to justify those events as having taken months to play out.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] you're still constantly quoting my post. Another one, and I'm going to block you just to stop the notifications. Please sort out whatever the issue is with your phone.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] If you clicked the Multi-Quote button on any posts, they will often remain selected and then be quoted in any future replies. You may have to go to the actual post, and deselect the Multi-Quote buttons on those posts.

No 100% sure that's what's happening for you, but I've had that issue at times in the past, so that may be it.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
That's like saying someone who learns how to screw in a screw is a trained mechanic.
No, it's like saying someone is able to block laser blasts fired by a droid while blindfolded seconds after learning there's such things as the Force and Jedi and Lightsabers.

If you want to make an analogy that fits, I'd say it's like someone finding out there are such things as screws, and then being handed a screwdriver, and then they build themselves a house.

We see a few days in the movie, but nothing says it was only a few days. We do see that Anakin at about age 6 not become a Jedi Knight until he's at least 18, if not older. That's at LEAST 12 years to become trained enough to become a Jedi. The younglings were even younger than he was when he started.
I said Luke's initial training on Dagobah is likely somewhere between a couple of days and a couple of weeks. He leaves Hoth at the same time as Han and the others, and then they are pursued by the Empire and hide in the asteroid field, and then head to Bespin. The Empire arrived just before them and sets their trap. How long do you think they're in the asteroid field? How long at Bespin? The movie doesn't offer a timeframe....but seems odd that Vader would wait more than maybe one day to reveal himself to Han, and it certainly seems like it's about that long.

So how long would you say this all takes?

As for Anakin, I think the fact that he was powerful with the Force and capable of things well ahead of his rank as a Jedi is clear. Their rankings are designations only....they need not be indicative of actual ability. That's the system the Jedi have in place. But if we're talking about raw ability, that system doesn't really apply.

Also, I think that a big part of Anakin's fall is the restrictions that the system placed on him, no? The Jedi are holding him back, so to speak. So much of what they do seems to be about avoiding the dark side than it is about actual Force usage. So in The Last Jedi, when Yoda and Luke kind of address the failings of the Jedi ways, I'd think that immediately comes to mind, no? That they were too hung up on doctrine.

In other words, we have no reason to think that training is an absolute requirement, or that the training must be of a certain duration. Luke's own training was incredibly brief compared to Anakin's, no? And he was able to avoid falling to the dark side and actually wound up redeeming Anakin by example. With maybe months of training.

I was hitting bullseyes with a rifle when I was 10. Being a good shot doesn't in any way indicate the force was being used. He wasn't flying an X-Wing when he shot the whomp rats.
During the briefing, the commander says that the vent is two meters, and everyone in the room reacts. Chewie and Han exchange a look of incredulity. One of the pilots says that the shot is impossible, even for a computer. Luke describes it as not a big deal and that he's made similar shots.

While not definitively stated, I'd say this foreshadows that only Luke can make the shot. And what's special about Luke among them all? The Force.

To achieve the level of ability that she has, yes she needs a teacher. At least to achieve it in under a dozen years. That goes for Ray, too.
Not really. Luke achieves his Return of the Jedi level of ability in far less than 12 years. Maybe as much as 1 year, but likely less than that.

Well, it only takes a few days to go from ignorant to a Jedi Knight according to some in this thread, so it really doesn't matter how much was other stuff. 5 minutes a day would still see them be full fledged Jedi Knights within a year at that rate.
Not according to some in this thread....according to what the movies show us. Luke is an incredibly fast learner, at least at first. Then he doubts himslf, and things slow down. Yoda is actually upset that he's not learning faster. And that's over a course of days.

Also, Jedi Knight is a title. Yes, we can assume those with the title must have a certain level of ability, but there's nothing in the films that says someone without that title absolutely cannot have the same level of ability. Actually, we know for a fact that non-Jedi can indeed be just as powerful in the Force.

Took Luke 7 years after RotJ to become a Jedi master.
Where do you get that from? I've no doubt it's been said somewhere, but I don't think it's ever stated in the films.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Yoda warnings quick and easy leads to the dark side. I don't think they rush training that much even the Sith.

Seems it's still canon that Mauls training took decades as well. So did Palpatines. And Anakin's etc. And Dooku.

Rey's the odd one out by a lot lol. Something doesn't seem right here.
Yoda. Maul. Palpatine. Anakin. Dooku. Heck, Luke. Might as well throw in Qui Gonn and Obi Wan and Mace Windu and Snoke and even Kylo.

Yes, Rey is the odd one out on Sith and Jedi that have received any major screen time in the movies.

Something isn't quite right with that ... probably not what you were going for. :)
 

Istbor

Explorer
As for Anakin, I think the fact that he was powerful with the Force and capable of things well ahead of his rank as a Jedi is clear. Their rankings are designations only....they need not be indicative of actual ability. That's the system the Jedi have in place. But if we're talking about raw ability, that system doesn't really apply.

Also, I think that a big part of Anakin's fall is the restrictions that the system placed on him, no? The Jedi are holding him back, so to speak. So much of what they do seems to be about avoiding the dark side than it is about actual Force usage. So in The Last Jedi, when Yoda and Luke kind of address the failings of the Jedi ways, I'd think that immediately comes to mind, no? That they were too hung up on doctrine.

In other words, we have no reason to think that training is an absolute requirement, or that the training must be of a certain duration. Luke's own training was incredibly brief compared to Anakin's, no? And he was able to avoid falling to the dark side and actually wound up redeeming Anakin by example. With maybe months of training.
Here's where I wonder about confusion between Anakin, Luke, and Rey' training.

It is kind of folly to try and compare the three against one another. We are looking at the process of a huge paradigm shift in the Jedi Order.

What I am seeing is the 'Old Ways'. Lots of regimented training, with these constructs of rank or progress thrown in. Your ability with the force doesn't govern this, the the council or some Jedi holocron stipulates when a padawan goes knight, and a knight goes Master. (throw in other ranks or titles for flavor where needed)

We then see Luke trained outside of this more regimented way. Intimately. By his masters Obi and Yoda, who probably still have a bit of that old doctrine when they teach it. Maybe still with these constructed ranks of Jedi-ness.

Finally we come to Luke training Rey, and it is his expression of training, even more perhaps free form than any of the other training. Where we come to this more naturalistic style. As Luke said, three lessons. Most importantly, what is the force, and the connection to it.

I could probably go more in depth on my thoughts here, but this is the gist of it.
 
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hopeless

Villager
Would this disparity in training be resolved if Rian revealed Rey had been left in the care of a Jedi Survivor hiding on Jakku...

So she was actually a fully trained Padawan mind whammied by her mentor to keep her safely hidden due to her mentor dying.
Remember how she kept on about returning to Jakku until she learned Finn returned for her thereby ending the geas so she's slowly recovering her true memories and skills explaining how and why she defeated Kylo by the end of TFA.

Would that have worked better to resolve this issue with Rey.

I'm just saying it doesn't appear that big a problem compared to TLJ's script.
 

MarkB

Hero
TFA introduced the idea of there being an "awakening" in the Force (it's in the title!), and while it's never clearly defined, it certainly seems to be a game-changer. It means that, whatever amount of 'rules' you think may or may not have been established in the previous movies, they may simply not apply at this point - not to Rey, and maybe not even to any Force user in the galaxy.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
No, it's like saying someone is able to block laser blasts fired by a droid while blindfolded seconds after learning there's such things as the Force and Jedi and Lightsabers.

If you want to make an analogy that fits, I'd say it's like someone finding out there are such things as screws, and then being handed a screwdriver, and then they build themselves a house.



I said Luke's initial training on Dagobah is likely somewhere between a couple of days and a couple of weeks. He leaves Hoth at the same time as Han and the others, and then they are pursued by the Empire and hide in the asteroid field, and then head to Bespin. The Empire arrived just before them and sets their trap. How long do you think they're in the asteroid field? How long at Bespin? The movie doesn't offer a timeframe....but seems odd that Vader would wait more than maybe one day to reveal himself to Han, and it certainly seems like it's about that long.

So how long would you say this all takes?

As for Anakin, I think the fact that he was powerful with the Force and capable of things well ahead of his rank as a Jedi is clear. Their rankings are designations only....they need not be indicative of actual ability. That's the system the Jedi have in place. But if we're talking about raw ability, that system doesn't really apply.

Also, I think that a big part of Anakin's fall is the restrictions that the system placed on him, no? The Jedi are holding him back, so to speak. So much of what they do seems to be about avoiding the dark side than it is about actual Force usage. So in The Last Jedi, when Yoda and Luke kind of address the failings of the Jedi ways, I'd think that immediately comes to mind, no? That they were too hung up on doctrine.

In other words, we have no reason to think that training is an absolute requirement, or that the training must be of a certain duration. Luke's own training was incredibly brief compared to Anakin's, no? And he was able to avoid falling to the dark side and actually wound up redeeming Anakin by example. With maybe months of training.



During the briefing, the commander says that the vent is two meters, and everyone in the room reacts. Chewie and Han exchange a look of incredulity. One of the pilots says that the shot is impossible, even for a computer. Luke describes it as not a big deal and that he's made similar shots.

While not definitively stated, I'd say this foreshadows that only Luke can make the shot. And what's special about Luke among them all? The Force.



Not really. Luke achieves his Return of the Jedi level of ability in far less than 12 years. Maybe as much as 1 year, but likely less than that.



Not according to some in this thread....according to what the movies show us. Luke is an incredibly fast learner, at least at first. Then he doubts himslf, and things slow down. Yoda is actually upset that he's not learning faster. And that's over a course of days.

Also, Jedi Knight is a title. Yes, we can assume those with the title must have a certain level of ability, but there's nothing in the films that says someone without that title absolutely cannot have the same level of ability. Actually, we know for a fact that non-Jedi can indeed be just as powerful in the Force.



Where do you get that from? I've no doubt it's been said somewhere, but I don't think it's ever stated in the films.
It was the old legends Luke, in canon it takes Luke 3.5 years to become a Jedi Knight and that is considered fast. Luke was a prodigy, child of the chosen one and he discovered a lot of things by himself and even Yoda says stuff like "I can teach you no more and "face Vader only then a Jedi will you be". There was a 3 year break between ESB and ANH.

Lukes at Jedi Knight level start of RotJ (6 months after ESB in old legends, 4 years form ANH-RotJ), so you could say he is either a Jedi then, after Yoda dies- when I am gone the last Jedi you be", or at the end of RotJ as he comes to the realisation that smacking Vader/Emperor down isn't the path a Jedi would take. They were foreshadowing Lukes darkside temptation a lopt since ESB as well. Anger in the cave on Dagobah, fear on cloud city, force choking the Gamorrean in RotJ, losing his temper vs Vader (and winning).

So his journey was longer/harder than Reys and he was fighting dark side temptation along the way. Rey has never been tempted by the Darkside or lost her temper really, Kylo tried in a way but he seemed to be tempting her with himself not the darkside as such. Obviously Anakin drew on the dark side more and eventually fell in RotS.

So Rey comes across as faster, better, more powerful, more perfect no training, and this is over 6 movies in cannon+ the cartoons let alone the 25-30 years of legends materials which are similar in most ways. Throw in them killing off Han+ Luke and Carries RL death and all the characters you care about are basically dead. Can't blame them for Carrie but they may have killed off Han and Luke to early. If I was going to kill Luke I would have done it in episode IX and even then thought long and hard about it.
 
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Zardnaar

Hero
TFA introduced the idea of there being an "awakening" in the Force (it's in the title!), and while it's never clearly defined, it certainly seems to be a game-changer. It means that, whatever amount of 'rules' you think may or may not have been established in the previous movies, they may simply not apply at this point - not to Rey, and maybe not even to any Force user in the galaxy.
They never really clear this up or follow it up. And even if it did awaken why? There is some random stuff in there about the light rising to face the dark but if that is the case why did it not awaken when Sidious and Vader were running riot. Why not just awaken in Luke and he could smack Kylo down in around 5 seconds.

They do give an explanation in the novels about Reys powers (she got them off Kylo) but its a crap explanation (why didn't Yoda download his training into Luke then?) but they need things like that ion the movies and not a novel and its still stupid. Makes a lot of things in the PT and OT pointless as well like training younglings or the darkside is quicker and easier. Its not you just download what you need Jedi Knight training in less than a minute. And she got that information from a dark sider as well which you would think should send alarm bells ringing with dark side temptation/knowledge etc.

If she turns out to be a Skywalker it still doesn't explain thing, th Skywalker bloodline is just force potential. If she is a force clone of Anakin it would explain things, its a bit of a stupid idea but less stupid than downloading your force training.
 

MarkB

Hero
It was the old legends Luke, in canon it takes Luke 3.5 years to become a Jedi Knight and that is considered fast.
Cite please? I never got the impression from either Yoda or Obi-wan that Luke was advancing faster than they expected. Rather the opposite at some points, in fact.

Luke was a prodigy, child of the chosen one and he discovered a lot of things by himself and even Yoda says stuff like "I can teach you no more and "face Vader only then a Jedi will you be".
Exactly. His advancement in the Force was more to do with his personal growth than any formal training he received.

Lukes at Jedi Knight level start of RotJ (6 months after ESB)
Is that timing established in new canon? There certainly weren't ever dates on screen in the movies.

so you could say he is either a Jedi then, after Yoda dies- when I am gone the last Jedi you be", or at the end of RotJ as he comes to the realisation that smacking Vader/Emperor down isn't the path a Jedi would take. They were foreshadowing Lukes darkside temptation a lopt since ESB as well. Anger in the cave on Dagobah, fear on cloud city, force choking the Gamorrean in RotJ, losing his temper vs Vader (and winning).
Yes. Luke is different from Rey. He took a different journey, and faced different problems. Why are you so uncomfortable with Rey having anything other than a cookie-cutter duplicate of Luke's story?

So his journey was longer/harder than Reys and he was fighting dark side temptation along the way. Rey has never been tempted by the Darkside or lost her temper really, Kylo tried in a way but he seemed to be tempting her with himself not the darkside as such. Obviously Anakin drew on the dark side more and eventually fell in RotS.
In TLJ, Rey senses the whole island and is immediately drawn to its Dark Side nexus. In her search for answers she is drawn to go there physically. The trial she undertakes is different than Luke's in ESB, but it's similarly a journey of self-discovery that feels like a defeat for her, leaving her without the answers she was looking for.

So Rey comes across as faster, better, more powerful, more perfect no training, and this is over 6 movies in cannon+ the cartoons let alone the 25-30 years of legends materials which are similar in most ways. Throw in them killing off Han+ Luke and Carries RL death and all the characters you care about are basically dead. Can't blame them for Carrie but they may have killed off Han and Luke to early. If I was going to kill Luke I would have done it in episode IX and even then thought long and hard about it.
Luke is dead, but he's also a Jedi Master. Chances are that he's not actually gone.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Cite please? I never got the impression from either Yoda or Obi-wan that Luke was advancing faster than they expected. Rather the opposite at some points, in fact.


Exactly. His advancement in the Force was more to do with his personal growth than any formal training he received.


Is that timing established in new canon? There certainly weren't ever dates on screen in the movies.


Yes. Luke is different from Rey. He took a different journey, and faced different problems. Why are you so uncomfortable with Rey having anything other than a cookie-cutter duplicate of Luke's story?


In TLJ, Rey senses the whole island and is immediately drawn to its Dark Side nexus. In her search for answers she is drawn to go there physically. The trial she undertakes is different than Luke's in ESB, but it's similarly a journey of self-discovery that feels like a defeat for her, leaving her without the answers she was looking for.


Luke is dead, but he's also a Jedi Master. Chances are that he's not actually gone.
Time timeline in the new canon is the same as the old AFAIK as they are both drawing on the same sources (the movie).

I wouldn't have had Rey follow Lukes journey or give her Lukes background. I would have made her a Jedi Knight or Padawan from the get go, tied her to Luke and Kylo. via Lukes training thing and maybe had Kylo destroy Lukes academy on screen at the end of TFA. I would have filled in the details a bit more, or if I had gone down TFA path, have Rey mind wiped or something and Luke or whatever owuld have removed it (restoring her full power and memories).

Snoke throne room scene for example, good scene but probably in the 3rd movie not the second. The mega Super Star Destoyer maybe use that as the big threat in VII not Starkiller base. Theres alos a lot of back gorund in the books that didn't make it on screen, the new TIEs and Star Detroyers are supposed to be beter, well sho us on screen have a single ISD in a First Order fleet thats smaller than the Resurgence class. Rather than blow up the New Republic fleet with Starkiller base use this new and improved tech they are supposed to have onscreen.

Subvert audience expectations in clever ways, the new TIEs go around smoking X-Wings, Poes a great pilot he survives the rest get shot to bits a'la trench run in ANH. I probably would have used Kylos TIE silencers and the old TIE defenders in those roles. Have effective Fisrt Order officers who are not idiots (write Hux better, or use Grand Admiral Thrawn). That owuld tie things to Rebels a bit and be a nice bone for the old fans.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Time timeline in the new canon is the same as the old AFAIK as they are both drawing on the same sources (the movie).
Then you can quote the lines where this is established from the scripts, yes? No. Please stop insisting on old EU stuff as remotely applicable.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Then you can quote the lines where this is established from the scripts, yes? No. Please stop insisting on old EU stuff as remotely applicable.
I did some checking last night and in some areas they are same.

Luke progressed faster than all the other major characters in the movies, its basically self evident onscreen. Rey progressed a lot faster than Luke. You had 6 movies+ cartoons doing it basically this way and thenm Rey comes along and does it another way, it creates a disconnect in the world building. It feeds into that whats the point of the 1st 6 movies, what did they achieve and are they all idiots" type idea. More likely people will say BS this movie sucks (TLJ).

Things don't need to be locked in stone, but if you're doing it different you need a decent explanation IMHO. I-VI were also about Anakin, he was the chosen won and had the greatest force potential ever, only getting cut to pieces put a dampener on it. Lucas was always straight up about it. Sure they own the rights they can do whatever they like but fans can do the same thing like not go and see your movies (Solo).
 
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