Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

[Zardnaar]

ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?

He used the force obviously but it's a lower level of force use than telekinesis or force lightning or mind trick. In RPG terms he blew a force point.

Kid Anakin was also stupid. Generally the OT 3 are more popular characters for some strange mysterious reason and it's due to things like this. Not to many people like kid Anakin or even adult Anakin because of those movies. I like Rey more than movie Anakin's. Daisy is a better actor than Hayden/Mark she's very good at facial expressions. Few tweaks would have made her great IMHO.

 

[Morrus]

He used the force obviously but it's a lower level of force use than telekinesis or force lightning or mind trick.

Says who?

 

[Zardnaar]

Says who?

Things like Clone Wars cartoon. Force sensitives have minor abilities like precognition etc but you need training to do much. The youngling that got smoked in RotS for example had lightsaber training. Han can't do much with one for example.

Or Yoda be Palpatine or Yoda cf Luke ESB. That's what I mean by tropes. Rey's using Jedi Master type powers. Mass telekinesis, force jumping TIE fighters. Luke jumped out of a trap by comparison.

If Rey was a Jedi Knight who lost her temper on occasion and was a survivor of the Jedi Academy it would give her a connection to the OT characters and Kylo explain a lot, and wouldn't run off to some dude she met that killed his dad in front of her.

 

[ccs]

Force powers didn't really exist in ANH.

Yeah, except for:
* Vader force choking Admiral Motti.
* "These aren't the droids you're looking for ~"
* The speed Obi-Wan wields that lightsaber in the cantina scene. Talk about the Quickdraw feat....
* Luke sensing the training balls shot & being able to block it.
* Obi-Wan sensing the death of Alderan.
*Obi-Wan being able to sense Vaders' presence.
* Vader sensing Obi-Wans' presence.
* Obi-Wans disappearing corpse trick.
* Obi-Wan talking to Luke during the trench run.
* Luke "using the Force" to guide his torpedo shot into the exhaust port.

Did I miss any?

** Oh, and the best use ever: Vader convincing you he's THE baddest ass movie villain of all time - just by stepping through that hatch on the Tantive IV.

The whole telekinesis thing was only introduced in ESB.

* Vader force choking Admiral Motti.
* Luke "using the Force" to guide his torpedo shot into the exhaust port.
If these aren't examples of TK....

 

[Zardnaar]

Luke didn't use the force to move the torpedo just aim it. His powers were a lot more restrained as well.

 

[Morrus]

Things like Clone Wars cartoon. Force sensitives have minor abilities like precognition etc but you need training to do much. The youngling that got smoked in RotS for example had lightsaber training. Han can't do much with one for example.

Cite. Where does it say that moving a rock is a higher level force power than aiming a torpedo at high speed?

 

[Zardnaar]

Cite. Where does it say that moving a rock is a higher level force power than aiming a torpedo at high speed?

Just generally how Jedi are potrayed in Legends and Canon. Trainings a big part of it you don't see Luke in a lightsaber duel or using mind trick in ANH. You don't see Anakin busting out force lightning or telekinesis untrained in TPM. Early on the force seems more subtle. You don't just pick up a lightsaber untrained and duel a trained whatever Kylo is. Or use telekinesis and win, Luke could barely pull his saber out of snow.

Anakin and a Luke both lost limbs taking on trained force users, Rey kinda wins. She's pulling stuff Anakin can't do with 10 years training. Luke had artoo plot hyperspace for him.

And trainings a big part of the OT, prequels etc in canon and legends.

Rey's pulling off better than Jedi Knight and Sith apprentice type stuff and pulling Jedi master force jumps over TIE fighters.

Ask yourself in universe why bother being trained. They didn't provide an explanation in the movies, they did in the books but that reason contradicts Yoda's teachings on the dark side being quicker, easier. Nope just be Rey and download it. Why train when a force meld can give you Jedi Knight/Master powers.

They could just have made Rey the galaxies youngest ever Jedi Knight/Master she's on a different level than Luke at the end of Episode VI where he becomes a Jedi Knight although I suppose he might have been one start of RotJ. She's also ahead of Anakin in power at least on screen power cartoon maybe not but 10 years training can none chosen one etc.

The two movies are over a matter of hours, days at best there's no time jump like APM to AotC.

It's also compelling storylines they don't have a compelling villaiain or support characters either. Phasma is a chump, Hux comic relief, Kylo is back and forth/ Darth Emo, Finn is a cowardly idiot (twice), Rose new character bad sub plot, and Pow is also an idiot. A new Vice Admiral turns up that's new, we don't care about and they kill Ackbar off screen. And they chopped Snoke in half and kill off Luke and Han.

Why are we supposed to care about these characters again? They're all unlikeable idiots villain, hero doesn't matter. Rey had her moments and isn't unlikeable as such more she is just there being a superhero. In Star Wars, no real dark side temptation, no loss of control, no anger etc. Luke got angry beat Vader. Anakin gave into his anger and put in a good showing vs a Jedi Knight borderline Master. These are Star Wars tropes.

I get they need to do different stuff, but Legends had a better sexual trilogy, had a better Han origin story have they learned nothing in 25 years IRL? Legends also gave us Dark Empire though so yeah.

They had the ingredients band bollocked it up and wonder why no one wants to buy the toys etc.

 

[Morrus]

Just generally how Jedi are potrayed in Legends and Canon.

So no cite then. Just more vagueness.

 

[Zardnaar]

So no cite then. Just more vagueness.

I did. Compare Rey with Luke and Anakin. She's doing Jedi Master stuff untrained/minimal training. I assume you have seen episodes I to VI.

It's right there on film she's next level stuff.

I'll try another approach who's more interesting Batman or Superman? And who's more popular? Superman's a bit boring yes? Batman is darker, had more flaws isn't Uber powerful?

 

[Morrus]

It's right there on film she's next level stuff.

So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).