Spoilers What do casual fans get wrong about Star Wars?

[Olgar Shiverstone]

This book was written from the perspective of one of the "intermediaries" IIRC, or at least someone who aspired to be one until he learned what a-holes the colonizers were. The Foundation books, as I recall, are all from the perspective of Foundation people.

I think there may have been an element of false help from the colonizers as well. Something like "We're here to help you with this ecological problem you're having", and then it turns out they actually caused it.

The story I'm referring to within Foundation is from the perspective of the "natives". Narrator changes multiple times through the initial Foundation book, since it spans many generations. IIRC most of the sequel books -- Foundation's Edge and beyond -- stick to a traditional novel format of single story and narrative perspective, but Foundation, like I, Robot is a connection of stories with a connecting story line, which I think were originally published episodically in places like Analog.

I'm not saying it is Foundation; just that what you're recalling still fits.

I've seen the "we're here to help (a situation we caused)" trope in a number of SF stories. Heck -- back on topic -- Star Wars did it in Timothy Zahn's original sequel trilogy!

 

[Willie the Duck]

Just like the last thread framed as superfans vs. casuals, I reject the initial framing. That said, there are interesting things to discuss here.

I've been saying the Jedi were an oppressive theocratic regime and the Rebellion was a religious militant terrorist organization since before Disney was involved.

Accusations against the Jedi as fascists are way overblown. What they were was COMPLACENT. Their goals were still good, and they did good for the galaxy, but they had been in the position of righteous authority for so long that they forgot their actual role -- peacekeepers. Both Qui Gon and Yoda understood this, though each approached it in a different way. Qui Gon thought that a major disruption in the status quo (the Chosen One) would fix the problem. Yoda believed that such would only exacerbate the problem and lead to the downfall of the Jedi. Only one of them was right.

It would make sense to have seen where this was going pre-Disney, as the prequels laid this out fairly thoroughly (even if we can disagree on exactly what it is). If nothing else, the Jedi order had some pants-on-head level nutty and poorly thought out rules (and apparently not even basic precautions against being betrayed) and walked head-up-their-posterior first into this mess.

The thing that I think worth mentioning is that what I think is happening is a subversion that has gone on too long and overtaken the original plotline. The Jedi work as the paladins of their story universe. A story about corruption or complacence in the Jedi dooming them and all around them is a fascinating and interesting place to take the IP. After that, they should have realized that the norm of the Jedi as the good guys was the norm that made the subversion work and gone back to that norm (and things that did, or focused on the parts of Star Wars other than the Jedi, have tended to be the bright spots of the post-prequel Star Wars IP).

It's not unique. It happened in Star Trek -- Deep Space 9 had a more military bent and a fallible Federation and hard men making hard choices and was in many ways peak ST, but the subsequent material trying to take the Federation down a peg and their heroes off their pedestals and such have met diminishing returns in terms of viewer engagement. Same with the DC Snyderverse (I always said Snyder thinking 'I'm going to subvert the happy shiny superhero genre' was a reasonable idea, just 20-40 years too late). Same probably with the Muppets, somehow.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I have a bad feeling about this.

 

[trappedslider]

It's serious business and should be treated as such

 

[jian]

I also reject the framing and can only really talk about what I think is commonly missed about the franchise, in my opinion.

• Star Wars is about fighting imperialism and fascism, and many people miss that the US is included in the list of imperialist nations who inspired the Empire. Yes, it’s common knowledge among fans, but less so among the viewing audience, I think.
• The Jedi are based on the Shaolin monastery and so that’s why they eschew emotional attachment (what’s their take on casual sex, I wonder) and as such they aren’t part of the Republic government; they’re a religious order whom the Republic ask far too often to do embassy and investigative work, because they’re an easy cop out from having to send Republic personnel. The Jedi are meant to be impartial and universally respected, but that’s all the authority they usually have. Leaning on the Jedi Order in this way is an excellent indicator that the Republic is not at all functional.
• By engaging in the Clone Wars at all, the Jedi lost. If the Republic can’t deal with a secession crisis without their pet monks, they’re already doomed.
• That said, the reason (probably) that the Republic does lean on the Jedi Order - the reason they don't have much in the way of standing armed or investigative forces - is that they're not actually a federal or national government, but more like the United Nations. They're a membership organisation who mostly debate international law and disputes.
• As such, their response to the secession crisis should have been (and probably was, initially) "OK, nobody's here under duress, you do you." But the problem was that the Separatists were forcing planets in their area to leave the Republic and join them by force, which was unacceptable.
• It's Palpatine who turns the Republic into an actual national government, instituting military rule and imperial governors.
• Destroying the Jedi Order was always Palpatine’s main goal. Conquering the Galaxy is definitely also very important, but he could have done that without destroying the Jedi if he wanted.

 

[Gradine]

Leaning on the Jedi Order in this way is an excellent indicator that the Republic is not at all functional.

See also: basically everything related to the Old Republic

 

[jian]

See also: basically everything related to the Old Republic

I’ve found some of the High Republic stuff interesting because that’s supposed to have been a high point, and even run a game in that setting.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I’ve found some of the High Republic stuff interesting because that’s supposed to have been a high point, and even run a game in that setting.

The thing about high points is that the thing that comes next must be decline, by definition.

 

[pawsplay]

I think when people watch Star Wars, they do often miss that it's critical of American Imperialism. There really was a point where the duly elected leader of the Republic created the first Grand Army of the Republic to crush a rebellion. That leader was Abraham Lincoln. It's a kid series but it it written with intelligence and conscience. And one thing George Lucas wanted you to take away was the notion that we got lucky with Abraham Lincoln; for all his ambition, he was fundamentally a good person and someone who accepted limitations on his authority. It could definitely have gone another way.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

one thing George Lucas wanted you to take away was the notion that we got lucky with Abraham Lincoln

Also the importance of trade policy.