Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Zardnaar

Hero
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
Doesn't specifically say but as I said see the actual movies.

Lucas was also clear that Vader's potential was about the peak of a Jedis power. All those interviews over the years. An entire generation was also raised on the old legends material starting with the Marvel comics. Sure you can declear then non canon but it doesn't magically make them go away. Feeds into audiences expectations yes? Same thing with 4E they declear this is the new way people liked the old.

Did you ever play Knights of the Old Republic? Millions did. Had a great story and that's what Star Wars is about and they serve up bilge water.

New Star Wars stuff can be done well, people expected better. Those feelings and emotions don't go away. Yoda's words don't go away he basically laid down the lore after all. Control control you must have control, and beware the darkside. They should have paid more attention to the tropes. How do you lose money in a Star Wars film, beats me but Disney did it.

Like it or not the movies are about the Skywalker's, if you don't like them fine but it's a major part of them yes?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Doesn't specifically say but as I said see the actual movies.
Exactly. We got there in the end. Thank you.

So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.
 
The Last Jedi was by far the worst of all the SW films. It promised so much and delivered less than zero. It ignored swathes of material from TWA (ANH clone).

If you can use ships with hyperspace drives to take out capital ships, why hasn't the rebellion/resistance been using that tactic since forever. Ridiculous.

Luke's "not really here" fight is straight from Snake Pliskin Escape from LA.

As to the story or Rey and her family, one can only presume that EmoRen lied for some purpose that Rey wasn't a skywalker to get her to turn a darksider. Though one wonders how she could be a Skywalker, she would hvae to have been abandoned by Luke or Leia. There was no Mara Jade refernce since they binned all the good expanded universe stuff though I am sure it could retcon in for the next instalment.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
Exactly. We got there in the end. Thank you.

So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.
Big difference in power levels used on screen is the main point.

Anakin was terrible, he was worse character than Rey. Jake Loyd gets a pass he was 10, Hayden well maybe Lucas is crap at dialogue. Daisy is better than both of the. And probably Mark as well.

Luke sucked for two movies, kid Anakin was terrible and annoying (Rey's not). Rey is Uber, Adult Anakin was a Jedi he had in universe reasons for being power still got chopped up.

I don't recall Luke winning a lightsaber fight until Episode VI, he wasn't using mind trick until the third movie. You don't see Vader doing Rey levels of Telekinesis until Rogue One 18 years a Sith Lord 13 years of Jedi training.

That's the difference untrained/barely trained doing things Jedi/Sith Masters do after decades, those Masters being some of the most powerful in the Galaxy. Luke struggled to move a few stones Rey can lift a cave worth. Same force power completely different scale (Yoda levels).
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Eh. You can keep writing essays, but your entire point hinges on a single factual claim which has been disproved, and which you’ve finally conceded to. Feel free to write more diatribes, but my work here is done. :)
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
Eh. You can keep writing essays, but your entire point hinges on a single factual claim which has been disproved, and which you’ve finally conceded to. Feel free to write more diatribes, but my work here is done. :)
No you using a false equivalent asking for a citation on an opinion on something we can see clear as day on screen. It's fairly apparent who is more powerful and it's not Luke. And yet Luke's the best character of the three (Anakin's at the bottom). If Masters can use powers padawans can't it should be clear what's more powerful.

The sky is blue (citation please). Hmmmn.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).
You cite it. It’s your claim.
You're the one trying to be clever. I answered your trap question. Here's mine.

On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke? Visually and what you can see. Ignore RotJ as Rey has had 2 movies.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke?
You’ve conceded that Rey’s abilities are not established anywhere as being more powerful abilities. That’s settled now. The reverse, of course, is also true.

Really, we’ve settled this point, and agreed on it. I’m not going to continue repeating myself over and over.

Hey, I get it. You don't like TLJ, and that's fine. But you wanted to use the thread to lecture everybody on how much you hated TLJ, and made some bold factual claims about established canon to ‘prove’ your opinion was the correct one, and feel it’s unfair that people ask you to back them up rather than just take you at your word. It’s gotta be frustrating, and now you’re angry at me for it. But that’s how debate works. Sorry, man.
 
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pukunui

Adventurer
I’ve already pointed this out in [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]’s last TLJ rant thread, but the only justification Rey needs for being “better” is that the Force is now awake. When the Force is awake, Force users don’t require as much training. Clearly the Force was asleep for a long time prior to Rey coming along. (It probably got bored watching a thousand generations of Jedi do the same stuff over and over again ...)

As for Anakin, Yoda himself said the prophecy could have been misread. Yes, his midichlorians were off the charts, but maybe Rey’s are even more so. We don’t know since Luke didn’t bother to take a blood sample while Rey was with him. ;)
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
You're the one trying to be clever. I answered your trap question. Here's mine.

On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke? Visually and what you can see. Ignore RotJ as Rey has had 2 movies.
Rey does move more rocks than Luke. On the other hand, she doesn't blow up a Death Star in her first flight in a sophisticated fighter-bomber either. So, with those completely different events lacking objective measurable scale, I'm going to go with any strong interpretation put on either being definitive is completely and utterly determined by the prejudices of the interpreter.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?
Anakin didn't win the pod race or blow up the ship with any use of force powers at all. With the pod race, he had good insticts which is an indicator that the force is stronger with someone, but is not using the force, and with the ship he pressed some random buttons to see what they could do and ooops! If they had actually had him using the force at his young age to blow up the ship, that scene wouldn't have been as lousy as it was. Luke did a snippet at the end, with guidance from a Jedi Master. Rey is using her powers virtually flawlessly with no aid whatsoever. There's a huge difference between her and the other two, and it has nothing at all do with "girl."
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.
Well, no. It isn't stated that lifting a rock is a higher level ability in the movies, but that doesn't mean that we have established that it isn't. We've just established that the movie doesn't specify. You're reaching a conclusion that isn't any more supported by the movies than [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]'s.

What we do know is that Luke struggled for quite a while to learn to use his powers in Empire, and even in Return of the Jedi he wasn't able to match Vader until he also tapped the dark side. Anakin took years to learn his. Rey without any significant time or training is able to match a dark side user, which is far superior to Luke or Anakin.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I love how folks claim that Luke got all kinds of training.

Obi-Wan describes the Force to him and then says “let go your conscious self” and then he’s blocking blasts from the training drone while blindfolded. This is also the extent of his light saber training that we see before he faces Vader. Yes, he loses, but he puts up a good fight. He impresses Vader and even gets a good shot in.

Yes, Luke trains with Yoda for a few days. He’s immediately able to start floating rocks and make crazy leaps and so forth. Is this really all that extensive? I don’t know, really....it’s hard to say how much time passes. Really not a lot, though....somewhere between a couple of days and a couple of weeks. However long Han and the others are stuck in the asteroid field and then on Bespin.

And one of the lessons Yoda teaches Luke, which he fails to grasp for some time, is that there is no difference between lifting a rock and lifting an x-wing. Which seems to be the only comment in the original films that compares one use of the Force with another in terms of effort.

Luke then presumably goes on to train some more in between Empire and Return. Again, hard to say how long. Hard to imagine that they’d hold off on rescuing Han very long, but we have no indication on how long it’s been. And when he shows up, he doesn’t seem all that much more capable with the Force. But Yoda does say that his training is complete.

So....based on Yoda’s statements, it seems like complete Jedi training is somewhere between a couple weeks and maybe a couple of months?

So then let’s look at Rey. She’s dropped off to survive on her own in a hostile environment when she’s about 5 years old. She spends the next 12 or so years crawling among the wreckage of all kinds of ships and other vehicles, scavenging for working components. We get enough of a glimpse of this life to know that it’s dangerous in all manner of ways.....she needs physical prowess to climb and maneuver through the wreckage, she needs to understand how the components function, and she also needs to contend with rivals and other opponents. And she had only herself to rely on during that time.

And do we not have hints that both Luke and Anakin have used the Force in their youth? In Anakin’s case, it’s explicitly stated. His instincts at racing and his knack for engineering are related to the Force. In Luke’s case, there are only hints that he’s done so....describing the shot he made in Beggar’s Canyon compared to the vent on the Death Star, when trained rebel pilots imply it’s an incredibly difficult shot.

So I’d say we have enough information to assume that Rey has been using the Force subconsciously to help survive for about 12 years, in an environment that is basically a giant obstacle course populated by hostile beings. So even if we’re generous about Luke’s training and say it was 6 months, Rey had about 24 times as much training. Yes, she lacked a teacher, but I would expect most folks would accept that she’d have some level of raw ability or affinity with the Force.

Do we really need things to be so explicitly stated?

Let alone more real world reasons for the increase in Force abilities due to improved special effects and how other action movies have characters doing all kinds of crazy things....watching Alec Guiness do a light saber spin doesn’t really compare to Thanos throwing a moon at the Avengers.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
.....


Are people really debating whether or not the amount of rocks a person moved is indicative of their power?

As opposed to being a complete and total element of "writers making stuff up as needed."

We all know that the Force isn't real, right? Right?

You know, before I really get into any more discussion about whether Rey or Luke's use of the force was more "realistic," or whether it totally made sense for the Rebel Alliance to entrust some rando farmer who has never flown a space ship with one of their few operational X-Wings and a super-important mission that determined the fate of the galaxy for REASONS .... there's something I wanted to say.

Having seen all of these debates over the years, and I've spoken to many of you in person, and some of you have thought about these issues of how realistic the Force is... y'know... for hundreds or thousands of hours of your lives, I'd just like to say... GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a movie! I mean, look at you, look at the discussions you are having! You've turned an enjoyable little trilogy, that most of us enjoyed and/or bought the bedsheets for, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?

There's a whole world out there! I mean, it's just some mindless movies, dammit, IT'S JUST A FICTIONAL UNIVERSE!

And, anyway, you're probably better off, if you take it that seriously, to just save up your money and go to Disney's Galaxy's Edge. Go on. Stop complaining and just give Disney all of your money.

Because if you don't give it to them for Star Wars, you will for the Avengers.
 
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hawkeyefan

Explorer
If only there had been a poll created with a couple of snarky options and a post explaining the poll by conversation with one’s self....then it’d be meaningful!
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Sigh I'll explain it in different way. With Rey it's as subtle as a brick in the face. She powerful because of reasons.

In each OT movie you have Luke grow in power slowly and each movie there is early, mid, end movie Luke. You can see his growth in the force.

ANH
Early. Luke is farm boy, sucks owned by Tuskans gets trained ( minimally)

Middle. He is a hero rescues princess.

End. Blows up death Star via impossible shot using the force.

ESB.
Early. Uses telekinesis for the 1st time. We have only seen Vader do that.

Mid movie. Gets trained, lacks control lose his temper, moves rocks. Moving rocks seems harder than a lightsaber. Fails to move X Wing.
End. Runs off, confronts Vader.

RotJ
Early. Jabbas palace. Uses force choke. Foreshadowing and Vader uses force choke. Uses mind trick, hmmn Been a Jedi Master uses mind trick. Fails to use it on Jabba, improved combat skill with lightsaber. Uses telekinesis more (like Vader) Hmmn Luke's a Jedi.

Mid movie, sees Yoda again learns the truth. Relationship established hands himself in.

End. Confronts Vader, gives in to his anger, wins (darkside warnings) becomes full Jedi roll credits.

Lucas was subtle, Luke's powers grow and you can compare it with Ben and Vader's. It's also explained and uses foreshadowing. Follows logical path it's a clever spin on the heroes journey.

Rey is way more in your face with her powers than Luke. Not much in the way of character development, no real discernable progress, no relationship to people she just met, and is Uber at everything relative to Luke (and Vader and maybe Yoda).

Ones a compelling character, the others just powerful. No real explaination or personality, not much world build, can duel a darksider and deflect blaster bolts untrained about 5 minutes after picking up a lightsaber. Took Luke 3 movies vs one.

Isn't it reasonable to infer that when Luke starts using Jedi/Sith Master powers he is getting better. The new movies are doing the same ham fisted stupid it the bad parts of the old legends material did. Bigger is better, more powerful cookie cutter characters etc.

There's no Lucas subtle story telling there. Or Zahns Thrawn Trilogy. It's brick in face storytelling ( done poorly). Luke touched the darkside 2 or 3 times as well.
 
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Istbor

Explorer
Says who?
Says Zardnaar, holder of the only Dragon Ball Z 'Scouter' that can read Jedi Power levels.

Rey's over !#$&ing 9000!!!!!!!!

On a more serious note. How are lifting rocks an advanced skill when both Rey and Luke are shown doing it during training. Why would you teach someone a master kill, during training? You start with the easy stuff first.

Also, if we are measuring power levels with game mechanics, none of those feats are very advanced if we take into account KoToR or just the Old Rebulic game. Abilities you leave early, or could feat/talent into as soon as you liked. (Sure in KoToR you are a master with amnesia, but its in the mechanics so... must be a valid measure of power right?
 

Istbor

Explorer
Anakin didn't win the pod race or blow up the ship with any use of force powers at all. With the pod race, he had good insticts which is an indicator that the force is stronger with someone, but is not using the force, and with the ship he pressed some random buttons to see what they could do and ooops! If they had actually had him using the force at his young age to blow up the ship, that scene wouldn't have been as lousy as it was. Luke did a snippet at the end, with guidance from a Jedi Master. Rey is using her powers virtually flawlessly with no aid whatsoever. There's a huge difference between her and the other two, and it has nothing at all do with "girl."
Sorry, but canon disagrees with you.

QUI-GON: You should be proud of your son. He gives without any thought of reward.
SHMI: He knows nothing of greed. He has...
QUI-GON: He has special powers.
SHMI: Yes...
QUI-GON: He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.

Also I can't read this quotes without hearing Liam Neeson's amazing voice.
 

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