Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I quite liked that one, I think its the accent and "that is interesting lets follow it up- oh wait".
I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
I've only been following "LastJediGate" peripherally, but I don't like or agree with the implication that those who don't like the new films can't stand a female lead. I think the criticisms are more diverse and nuanced than that. I'm not saying those folks don't exist, but there are other reasons to dislike the new films and to me it is a rather convenient way to ignore legitimate criticisms by reducing them to sexism.
Some criticism are nuanced, yes. But there's an awful lot that circle around to Rey being a Mary Sue and holding her to a standard that they don't for either Luke or Anakin. That's where this boils down to sexism.
 

hawkeyefan

Explorer
I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.

Might as well criticize a lemon meringue pie for not being pizza. I mean, sure, maybe you like pizza more, and wanted pizza when you went into the theater, but it isn't like they did a bait-and-switch on you. And it isn't like, as a Star Wars fan, they ever gave you pizza to begin with! But we will hold it against this lemon meringue and not the one from our youth. That's sensible. :/
Surely the difference must be in the films, yes? The original trilogy is brilliance and the new one is the worst! It's clear because someone said it on the internet!!!

It has nothing to do with the fact that most of the people in question formed their opinion of the original trilogy when they were children, and now they're applying adult level criticism to the new movies. No....that can't be it at all!
 

Mallus

Hero
I have mixed feeling about this.

On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
 

Istbor

Explorer
While it is laced with profanity, Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage does a good job at laying out the flaws and holes in the movie without any sexism.

On a personal note, I have spoken with many people, all of whom disliked the movie for the reasons in the above rant and none of whom had a problem with Rey not being Ray.
*Shrug* I have spoken with many, many people, all of whom liked the movie despite the reasons in the above rant. None of whom had a problem with Rey.
 

Imaculata

Adventurer
I have mixed feeling about this.

On the one hard, it looks to be a stunning adventure, one I'm confident J.J. has filled with charm. On the other hand, I got the sinking feeling J.J. went ahead and undid most of the smart & interesting choices Rian made in TLJ, and thus will end the new trilogy not only with a weaker film than the middle one, but a film that retroactively weakens/cheapens its predecessor. Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
Personally I liked TFA a lot more than TLJ, and I am by no means a JJ Abrams fan. Undoing some of the mistakes that were made in TLJ (and I know this is a point of disagreement) could do a lot to make me like the last Star Wars film of this trilogy. I'm cautiously optimistic that JJ Abrams will at least close the trilogy with a some what coherent story that feels like Star Wars, and will not make me hate the characters like TLJ did.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Turns out there were more posts about TLJ than about the new trailer. 48 about TLJ and 32 about TROS. A most effective thread hijack, if ever I saw one.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Well, in that case, in order to complete the threadjack (and since I came in late), here are the complete, total, and inarguable rankings of the Star Wars films to date:

1. Empire Strikes Back.

2. The Last Jedi.

3. A New Hope.

4. Rogue One.

5. The Force Awakens.

6. Going to any Star Wars movie with a friend who keeps asking you when Robert Downey Jr. is going to crack some jokes and put on his Metal Suit.

7. Return of the Jedi.

8. Having a recurring nightmare that George Lucas has invented time travel and is going to use it to improve your childhood by taking out all the bad guns and replacing Indiana Jones with Jar Jar Binks.

9. Revenge of the Sith.

10. The Phantom Menace.

11. Having a player show up to your D&D game and announcing, "I LOVE PALADINS! THEY ARE SO COOL!"

12. Caravan of Courage.

13. Battle of Endor.

14. Realizing that not only is Star Wars killing off all of the characters you grew up with, but that the actors that played those characters are dying too, and that they abyss you are staring into is staring back at you. Man, that new trailer has me tearing up. I miss you, Carrie Fisher. :(

15. Holiday Special. I LOVE COCAINE!!!!!!

16. Solo (except Lando ... Lando is cool).

17. George Lucas’s proposed sequels (look them up ... and be thankful he sold out).

18. Fully understanding that a space opera that you enjoyed for a few years in your youth and still appreciate to this day is not only nothing more than more corporate IP that Disney is using to take over the world and everyone’s brains, but is also the breeding ground for a peculiar and nasty strain of nerd-rage with a side-dose of toxic masculinity that frightens the hell out of you.

19. Attack of the Clones.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This ended up being a thread about how Zaardnar hates The Last Jedi, so I've edited the title and started a new one.
I was going to argue wiht this decision, but then I read the thread again.

I find that most of the same sorts of issues are found in the original trilogy. Very early on, for example, the guy is criticising the film for lack of world building, for not really laying out what the Republic and First Order were. Not that the original films layed out what the Empire was, but hey, we'll hold this against one movie, but not the other. Sure!

This is a thing about Space Opera - it doesn't hold up under real deep logical scrutiny. Because Space Opera isn't about realism and relentless logic. It is a genre of melodrama - appealing more to the emotions than to the intellect. And criticism along these lines generally amounts to arguing that the movie is flawed because it wasn't a thing it never claimed to be, largely missing the point of the piece.
The world building critique always seems egregiously foolish to me, when it comes to Star Wars. The OT didn't do much world building outside of visuals and other cues. The same sort of thing the ST does.

Of course, ending a trilogy with a weaker film hearkens back to the original 3, so you could say it's tradition, I guess.

I will admit Rey leaping over Kylo's speeding TIE fighter was wicked cool...
Nah, RoTJ is the best OT movie. :D
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Turns out there were more posts about TLJ than about the new trailer. 48 about TLJ and 32 about TROS. A most effective thread hijack, if ever I saw one.
Yes, well, it is a trailer, about 2 minutes long. Not a whole lot of content there to talk about, in the end. Holding up as high as a 3:2 ratio is pretty good given its runtime compared to entire movies.
 
The implication is not about individuals. It is that, in aggregate, misogyny drove more of the negative assessments than legitimate critique did.
Maybe - but I don't know how you'd possibly prove that. And furthermore, my point is, why bring it up? Why is it part of a conversation that is (hopefully) only about legitimate critiques, or at least ones that aren't based on misogyny? Seems like a bit of a red herring to me.

Now, you *admit* that you are only "peripherally" aware of it, even years after, so I don't see as you have context to be able to judge that statement. I, honestly, don't have the time or inclination to educate you and re-litigate how much of this was driven by men who are not so much thoughtful movie critics as they are uncomfortable with the changing social landscape around them.
So you're saying anything you say to me is non-falsifiable because I haven't followed this closely? Hmm. But you're right in that I don't have a strong opinion either way as to how much of TLJ complaints are due to this demographic you speak of. I just don't think we should assume that is what is going on, especially when there is no evidence within a given conversation (like in this thread). Seems like a rather slippery debate tactic that is often used in discussions pertaining to identity politics in some way.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Maybe - but I don't know how you'd possibly prove that.
Why, in fact, do I need to prove it at all? I said I hoped that Disney did not change its direction to satisfy such people. If, in fact, you don't believe they exist to any significant extent, you should expect my hopes are trivially fulfilled, and you can ignore my comment.

But, you want to talk about proof? Well, before we go down that road, what you do you mean by "prove"? In a world where Rottentomatos had to significantly change how they work with crowdsourced reviews because of misogynist sandbagging, how much proof do you need to be satisfied that I am at least justified in thinking this might be an issue?


And furthermore, my point is, why bring it up? Why is it part of a conversation that is (hopefully) only about legitimate critiques, or at least ones that aren't based on misogyny? Seems like a bit of a red herring to me.
Movies, and choices in production, happen in a context of the society around them. It is so terribly odd that I have hopes regarding the movie's production relevant to that context?

So you're saying anything you say to me is non-falsifiable because I haven't followed this closely?
Not in the slightest. This has nothing to do with non-falsifiability. It has to do with whether I am going to give your misgivings credence when they don't come from a place of understanding. You don't like the implication? You don't agree with the implication? But, you started by admitting you don't really know what's going on. How valid is your admittedly poorly informed opinion on the matter?

I just don't think we should assume that is what is going on, especially when there is no evidence within a given conversation (like in this thread). Seems like a rather slippery debate tactic that is often used in discussions pertaining to identity politics in some way.
You are slipping past how my point was not based on the content of this discussion. I am pretty sure that Disney does not have time travel. There is no reasonable way this discussion on a tiny website would influence their plot choices on a film that's already finished principle photography. So, evidence within the discussion is irrelevant to my point. I was speaking to the fact, as noted above, that the movie was created in a larger context that could have had influence. I stated a hope that, in essence, the company was strong willed enough to not give in to such.

I ask you, how is this hope problematic? Why do you feel a need to argue against such a hope?

Those last questions are intended as rhetorical - it is perhaps important for you to consider why you really need to stand against that stated hope, before continuing.
 
I'm not "standing against that stated hope," [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]. In truth, I agree with you and am not at all opposed to your hope - although would extend this to hoping that the film creators don't pander to any demographic if it in any way compromises creativity and verisimilitude - whether it is pandering to misogynists and racists on one hand, or people who think that every real world demographic has to be represented on screen on the other, even if it doesn't fit in with the world-building.

I simply took issue with the implication that not liking something equates with being misogynist (or whatever). You've mostly cleared that up. I remain unclear whether we're talking about a large number of misogynists or mainly a vocal (and hacking) minority - and I'm not sure if that can be adequately proven. I take for granted (unfortunately) that such folks exist, but I do question whether they are as prevalent as the counter reaction would imply. I have watched several Youtube videos that bash TLJ, but none of them veered into blatant or even implied misogyny. Some did seem to take issue with the perception that Disney was pandering to "Woke" folks, but I don't think that that complaint is inherently sexist, racist, etc.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Why, in fact, do I need to prove it at all? I said I hoped that Disney did not change its direction to satisfy such people. If, in fact, you don't believe they exist to any significant extent, you should expect my hopes are trivially fulfilled, and you can ignore my comment.

But, you want to talk about proof? Well, before we go down that road, what you do you mean by "prove"? In a world where Rottentomatos had to significantly change how they work with crowdsourced reviews because of misogynist sandbagging, how much proof do you need to be satisfied that I am at least justified in thinking this might be an issue?




Movies, and choices in production, happen in a context of the society around them. It is so terribly odd that I have hopes regarding the movie's production relevant to that context?



Not in the slightest. This has nothing to do with non-falsifiability. It has to do with whether I am going to give your misgivings credence when they don't come from a place of understanding. You don't like the implication? You don't agree with the implication? But, you started by admitting you don't really know what's going on. How valid is your admittedly poorly informed opinion on the matter?



You are slipping past how my point was not based on the content of this discussion. I am pretty sure that Disney does not have time travel. There is no reasonable way this discussion on a tiny website would influence their plot choices on a film that's already finished principle photography. So, evidence within the discussion is irrelevant to my point. I was speaking to the fact, as noted above, that the movie was created in a larger context that could have had influence. I stated a hope that, in essence, the company was strong willed enough to not give in to such.

I ask you, how is this hope problematic? Why do you feel a need to argue against such a hope?

Those last questions are intended as rhetorical - it is perhaps important for you to consider why you really need to stand against that stated hope, before continuing.
Mind me asking did you notice the plot hles and questions the Last Jedi raised? I mean in universe Star Wars lore about how the Dark side is the quick and easy path, or how using star cruisers as hyperspace weapons makes a lot of things pointless like the assualt on Star Killer Base, or the death star attacks in the OT.

Can you understand the way Rey was booked/written that with her power levels it also makes a few things pointless since she is kinda like superman but without kryptonite. A simple question is who is you main villain there is no Tarkin/Vader/Emperor equivalent as the ones they did have got jobbed out or used as comic relief (Hux, Phasma), or they have been made to look like chumps 2 movies in a row (Kylo).

If Rey smacks down Kylo where is the epic story in that, its already been established that she is more powerful than him, and why do you need to bother training Jedi a'la the other 6 movies.

If she isn't a Skywalker whats the point of the 1st 6 movies? If she is a Skywalker why bother claiming her parents are nobodies only to retcon/swerve the audience in IX.

Do you think its good story telling for Rian Johnson to burn down every potentially interesting plot hook JJ Abrams weaved through TFA which I rewatched recently. Where the emotion, the passion, the accomplishment that the OT had, or the world building the prequels had?

Now do you see the potential problems or why people might be concerned? Yeah sure I might be a bit passionate but there only really 2 franchises I care about, Star Wars and D&D.New is fine (5E, Thrawn Triliogy, KoToR), but you have to pay respect to what came before and tie it togather (see reaction to TLJ and say 4E).
 

Rabulias

Adventurer
The only thing Star Wars related that was still going in 1990 for example was an RPG game and the company gave the author some RPG material. Palpatines name along with Coruscant and a few other bits and pieces came from the old Legends material.
Palpatine's name was in the prologue in the novelization of Star Wars in 1977.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
If she isn't a Skywalker whats the point of the 1st 6 movies?
Same as it was prior to TFA.
Episodes IV-VI - space opera story of good vs evil with of course good triumphant.
Episodes I-III - the origin story of Darth Vader.


If she is a Skywalker why bother claiming her parents are nobodies only to retcon/swerve the audience in IX.
Just clumsy story telling.
Sure, we the viewers (mostly) know she's a Skywalker (or whatever). But part of the current story is watching Rey discover that.
Unfortunately it's just not being presented well.
 

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