Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Geek Talk & Media
Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 7594626" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>@<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6716779" target="_blank">Zardnaar</a></u></strong></em>, I empathize with some of your issues with TLJ and don't think questioning whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not is inherently sexist, but I think you are going a bit overboard in trying to line her up with Luke and compare them in every detail. No matter what way you look at it, their "Mary Sueness" is similar. </p><p></p><p>The only thing that bothered me about Rey's Mary Sueness in TFA was how she could hang with Kylo Ren in a lightsabre duel. I know he was injured, but it still seemed a bit absurd and definitely damaged my suspension of disbelief. But <em>overall</em> she wasn't really any more Mary Sueish than Luke. If she was, it wasn't by much - and not worth getting upset about.</p><p></p><p>The Mary Sue is a female version of wish fulfillment. Luke, and superheroes in general, are male versions of wish fulfillment. I don't know why female wish fulfillment would be any worse, except insofar as TFA felt like fan fiction and the Mary Sue is derived from fan fiction. The more obvious difference is that it is generally inserted into contexts that have been historically male dominant (e.g. superhero and action films).</p><p></p><p>I think we can all agree that female characters should have equal or at least simlar place in films, even historically male dominant ones. Or at least I hope we can agree on that!</p><p></p><p>That said, where I differ from the "orthodox liberal view" is in two ways. One has absolutely nothing to do with sex or gender and is more about creativity. I am all for seeing more female heroes in film, but I would like to see more new properties. Do we need an all-female Ghostbusters, Ocean's 8 or, gods forbid, a Jane Bond? Why not something new? Similarly with Rey: aside from the lightsabre duel, my main issue with her is creative: she's simply too similar to Luke in too many ways. Not exact, mind you, but it would have been nice to see them come up with something a bit different.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, I think these female heroes end up being too paper thin in terms of to what degree they are actually female; in a lot of cases we are getting female versions of male heroes, but not truly feminine heroes. What that would look like, I don't know, and could be any any number of things - but rather than saying, "Let's do a female Luke," I'd rather see "Let's see what a female force prodigy might look like." Or rather than saying, "Let's wear pant-suits so we can fit into the male work environment," why not say "Let's wear what we want to wear and define ourselves." </p><p></p><p>Now the potential problem with taking that approach is that it implies intrinsic differences between men and women, which some take issue with (despite, well, biology). But aside from biology, let us remember that Star Wars is based on mythic archetypes; the lightsaber is a sword, which is a rather phallic representation of spiritual will and power. It even becomes "erect" when activated. What might a (non-phallic) female force weapon look like? Would it even be a weapon? There are interesting creative possibilities there that haven't been explored, at least in the films.</p><p></p><p>Regardless, I think the issue needs to mostly be taken up by women, not men. Women need to decide how the heroine looks, what a female force prodigy would be like. I just hope we see more versions of actual <em>heroines</em>, and not just "female heroes." I don't think Rey utterly fails in that regard (or Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, etc), but I would like to see them go further. Maybe the first step is "female heroes," and then next we can see what a heroine might look like. </p><p></p><p>But I will throw in one suggestion: how about a heroine that doesn't solve all conflicts through violence? Or at least is maybe more of an aikido master than a boxer? I remember the great Ursula Le Guin talking about this, taking issue with the notion promulgated in cinema and genre literature, that all conflicts must be solved through violence. I don't care if this hypothetical hero/ine was male or female, but all I'm saying is that if a heroine wants to pave new territory and not just remake everything in a female version of traditional male tropes, why not a heroine that says "enough of the violence - there has to be another way."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 7594626, member: 59082"] @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6716779"]Zardnaar[/URL][/U][/B][/I], I empathize with some of your issues with TLJ and don't think questioning whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not is inherently sexist, but I think you are going a bit overboard in trying to line her up with Luke and compare them in every detail. No matter what way you look at it, their "Mary Sueness" is similar. The only thing that bothered me about Rey's Mary Sueness in TFA was how she could hang with Kylo Ren in a lightsabre duel. I know he was injured, but it still seemed a bit absurd and definitely damaged my suspension of disbelief. But [I]overall[/I] she wasn't really any more Mary Sueish than Luke. If she was, it wasn't by much - and not worth getting upset about. The Mary Sue is a female version of wish fulfillment. Luke, and superheroes in general, are male versions of wish fulfillment. I don't know why female wish fulfillment would be any worse, except insofar as TFA felt like fan fiction and the Mary Sue is derived from fan fiction. The more obvious difference is that it is generally inserted into contexts that have been historically male dominant (e.g. superhero and action films). I think we can all agree that female characters should have equal or at least simlar place in films, even historically male dominant ones. Or at least I hope we can agree on that! That said, where I differ from the "orthodox liberal view" is in two ways. One has absolutely nothing to do with sex or gender and is more about creativity. I am all for seeing more female heroes in film, but I would like to see more new properties. Do we need an all-female Ghostbusters, Ocean's 8 or, gods forbid, a Jane Bond? Why not something new? Similarly with Rey: aside from the lightsabre duel, my main issue with her is creative: she's simply too similar to Luke in too many ways. Not exact, mind you, but it would have been nice to see them come up with something a bit different. Secondly, I think these female heroes end up being too paper thin in terms of to what degree they are actually female; in a lot of cases we are getting female versions of male heroes, but not truly feminine heroes. What that would look like, I don't know, and could be any any number of things - but rather than saying, "Let's do a female Luke," I'd rather see "Let's see what a female force prodigy might look like." Or rather than saying, "Let's wear pant-suits so we can fit into the male work environment," why not say "Let's wear what we want to wear and define ourselves." Now the potential problem with taking that approach is that it implies intrinsic differences between men and women, which some take issue with (despite, well, biology). But aside from biology, let us remember that Star Wars is based on mythic archetypes; the lightsaber is a sword, which is a rather phallic representation of spiritual will and power. It even becomes "erect" when activated. What might a (non-phallic) female force weapon look like? Would it even be a weapon? There are interesting creative possibilities there that haven't been explored, at least in the films. Regardless, I think the issue needs to mostly be taken up by women, not men. Women need to decide how the heroine looks, what a female force prodigy would be like. I just hope we see more versions of actual [I]heroines[/I], and not just "female heroes." I don't think Rey utterly fails in that regard (or Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, etc), but I would like to see them go further. Maybe the first step is "female heroes," and then next we can see what a heroine might look like. But I will throw in one suggestion: how about a heroine that doesn't solve all conflicts through violence? Or at least is maybe more of an aikido master than a boxer? I remember the great Ursula Le Guin talking about this, taking issue with the notion promulgated in cinema and genre literature, that all conflicts must be solved through violence. I don't care if this hypothetical hero/ine was male or female, but all I'm saying is that if a heroine wants to pave new territory and not just remake everything in a female version of traditional male tropes, why not a heroine that says "enough of the violence - there has to be another way." [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Geek Talk & Media
Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument
Top