Stat Penalties/Damage?

[Xorn]

This was mentioned in one of the podcasts (sorry don't recall which one, as I have them all on an iPod Switch and listen to them at work--it's the one that includes what SWSE & 4E have in common); because ability damage has such a dramatic ripple effect across the character, they were removed from combat. I believe the mention on magic items indicated they were moving away from ability boosting items, too--simply because there was nothing comparable to a +5 intelligence item for a wizard, etc.

I think it is a great move, as I hate ability damage. I like 4 defenses--if you can go after Will against that Brute, that's probably a good idea!

 

[billd91]

Swarming Wyverns or worse Shadows against PCs who con take down most creatures of that CR incredibly easy takes no tactics, and both are relative resistanct to normal attempts to contain them, often actively discouraging true tactical play. Using dex damaging abilities against dragons takes no tactics, it can require preparation and forethought, but once you're in combat there's no tactics involved. It's strategic in a way that tends to be interesting to Robin Laws style "tactitions" but it's not tactical.

How is using a tactic to attack a dragon's low stat not tactical play? Is there some hidden definition of tactical that we don't know about?
It sounds like what you're complaining about is a dominant tactic (which is still tactical, by the way), but since we'll have that anyway thanks to targeting a fighter or barbarian's will save (or will defense in 4e), I'm not sure your argument is a good one.

As far as the scalability of ability damage, it's true that most abilities don't scale much. With the exception of strength and constitution that rise with size, most stay about the same. But most defenses that must be penetrated before the stat damage (saving throws for poison or spells, spell resistance) do tend to scale up. Personally, I don't worry too much about my players attacking draconic dexterity. They don't have that many ways to do it that are likely to be effective. Their shadow companion may be eating a lot of giant strength in the current adventure, but a single giant with a magic weapon has a 50% chance to one-hit it away and giants have strength to spare.

 

[frankthedm]

How is using a tactic to attack a dragon's low stat not tactical play? Is there some hidden definition of tactical that we don't know about?

Becasue the dragon was given a ten Dex to represent it was neither agile nor lumbering. Animals have an int of one to two to represent they are not as smart as a sentient. Neither were given those scores to be easy targets to "Whack-a-Stat".

 

[malraux]

I think it is a great move, as I hate ability damage.

Or even worse, ability drain. Nothing stops an adventure faster than that.

 

[Satori5000]

I too am glad that ability damage is gone in the next edition. It is generally something my current group avoids. It makes the game less fun in an RP kind of way when the wizard/sorcerer takes out the big bad fighter type with an empowered RoE. Whats fun about beating on a guy that cant defend himself?
Then you get to touch of idiocy. That one right there is probably the most annoying one of them all. A 2nd level spell that does 1d6 Int, Wis, and Chr damage. With a lesser rod of empower or the feat, you can take out any spell caster for most of the early levels. Then its just beating on a defenseless commoner. Where is the fun in that?

I don't remember where i heard it, but i definitely like the way poisons are going to work in 4E, i think its damage per round until you save against it.

 

[Chibbot]

Overall, I definitely agree that ability damage/drain and negative levels are going out the window. While in the 3.x games I play in and run, all of these things happen, I think they are a pain to deal with. I am thrilled about the 4e idea of doing away with sitting outside a door for 2 minutes buffing everyone before kicking it in, rinse repeat.

That said, I do fully expect to occasionally deal damage to a PCs ability score now and again when I run my 4e games. But it will not be during combat, and will be for a story-significant reason.

 

[kennew142]

I have an intense dislike for ability damage. I have from the first time I opened a 3e book. I'm so glad to see it go away.

Removing ability damage doesn't have to mean that enfeebling effects have to go away. It would fit the new system very well to have a ray of enfeeblement that bestowed a -2 penalty on STR based attacks until the target makes a save.

The way ability damage works now, it makes every ability score another potential hit point score. The fact that d10 ability damage (most of the time) does half or more of at least one ability score on the average with a single hit is an end run around hit points.

As for healing it just as easily as hit point damage, think again. Potions will do it, but clerics require 3 rounds to heal ability damage until very high level.

I've never minded negative levels as much as ability damage, but I dislike the concept of losing levels. If negative levels never had a chance of becoming permanent (the system I used in 3e), they would be more acceptable to me.

It's my post; of course it's my opinion!

Ken

 

[JDJblatherings]

The only problem with ability damage was the math. It would be simplified by having the penalty come off all related rolls and when the penalty equalled the stat it was relate to you suffered the consiquences, death, immoblization, whatever.

-4 STR would mean -4 to STR rolls, if you had STR 16 you could in theory keep on ticking until you collapse from weakness if it STr damage hit reached -16 STR.

Give the penalty a name maybe and they sound cooler 4 points of weakness, soudn more evocative then -4 STR, even if they would mean the same thing.

 

[Blackbrrd]

...
Removing ability damage doesn't have to mean that enfeebling effects have to go away. It would fit the new system very well to have a ray of enfeeblement that bestowed a -2 penalty on STR based attacks until the target makes a save.
....

Or they could just give you -2 to melee attacks, -2 to ac, -2 to reflex defence, etc. In other words no secondary effects.

Better than getting -2 to str that gives -1 to attack and -1 or -2 to damage (if you had a two-handed weapon and 18 str to begin with), and -2 to attack with your mighty composite bow, etc, etc.

I am currently playing a cleric with the strength domain(+8 str), and access to bulls strength(+4str), divine power(+6str), rightous might(+4str), prc ability(+4str) and most of these stack, except the three first which are enhancement bonuses. And, offcourse wielding a two-handed weapon, so my attack isn't scaling at the same speed as my damage). It is a royal pain in the ass recalculating my attack/damage bonus all the time. ... Actually the problem here is that I just have too many ways to buff... And it makes fights totally unpredictable for the DM. My character either has 14 str and +13 to hit, or 30str and +26 to hit... (that would take two rounds of buffing to get with quickend divine favour, divine power, rightous might, prc ability and strenth domain...). In a strange kind of way I like tinkering with my character, I have lots of options every fight (its a cleric!!!), but I know its over the top and totally unpredictable.

On another topic discussed:
Using dex damaging attacks against a dragon isn't tactics but a strategy. The strategy can be used every combat. Tactics is something that probably changes from combat to combat.

In my current group if your strategy is to nuke every monster with for instance enfeebling ray you will get the spell banned. (It clearly isn't balanced). Instead of banning a spell, we have a silent understanding: you can use spells like that sometimes, but not often enough to make the game boring. The same with the improved trip/spiked chain/enlarge person combo. It is a general strategy that works too well in 3.5. (At the same time its a big investment in feats to enable, so we just banned it.)

 

[frankthedm]

You can change tactics mid-battle to compensate for the damage type and clerics can heal stats just like HP.

No, clerics can't heal stats just like HP. Restoration and Lesser Restoration which heal stat damage take 3 whole rounds to cast, Heal also works on stat damage, but is an incredibly valuable resources even when the party does have it. Greater restoration, which heal ability drain, also costs 500XP and takes 10 minutes to cast.