Stats. Hate them ? Love them ? Think they can be better ? Or an outdated concept ?

[The Crimson Binome]

Ah, Ars Magica! It's _such_ a marvelous system! Imho, everyone looking for inspirations regarding things magical should check it out

From what I understand, it's also the same basic system which is used by Furry Pirates.

 

[3ArmSally]

The rules are what make the ability scores/stats valid and it's pretty obvious when a game is just forcing a stat to be there out of a sense of obligation. Too many games try to be accessible to veteran gamers by keeping the standard D&D ability scores. Even D&D went up to twelve "sub-abilities" near the end of 2nd Ed. The best games have a use for every statistic. Whether it be D&D's six, World of Darkness with it's character type stats (humanity, gnosis, etc.) or Numenera's three stats that double as HP.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The rules are what make the ability scores/stats valid and it's pretty obvious when a game is just forcing a stat to be there out of a sense of obligation. Too many games try to be accessible to veteran gamers by keeping the standard D&D ability scores. Even D&D went up to twelve "sub-abilities" near the end of 2nd Ed. The best games have a use for every statistic. Whether it be D&D's six, World of Darkness with it's character type stats (humanity, gnosis, etc.) or Numenera's three stats that double as HP.

Do you have any examples of a game that didn't need a particular stat, but included it anyway?

 

[3ArmSally]

I would say that Paladium had a few stats that felt forced. Unless you rolled extremely well there was no use for several stats at all. To a much lesser degree charisma has become less usefull in D&D, in the (bad?) old days it provided a slew of passive effects (reactions of NPCs and henchmen most importantly) charisma feels kind of vestigial. If I wasn't on a subway I could probably scrape a few more examples together but commenting on the fly is more fun.

 

[aramis erak]

Differentiation of characters is essential.
Stats are a great way to do so, but not inherently essential.

 

[Ratskinner]

Having happily played a few rpgs without traditional stats....no, strictly speaking they are not necessary.

There are benefits that can be had, but there are also problems generated. Essentially, any sort of character trait (stats, classes, aspects, feats, etc.) are about defining a character within the world. The same kind of definition that traditional stats provide can be picked up by other traits.

I will say that some of the attendant mechanics (like rolling) are important to how much I appreciate them in a game. I've played/witnessed way too many OSR games with multiple fighters to feel that a character's basic effectiveness in their chosen class should be determined by die roll during character creation. It would make good sense to me if those kinds of things were options within the class. That way, you could set all Ftr 1's with the same melee combat efficacy. The one who took the Mighty Sinews would get different non-combat bonuses than the one who chose Brilliant Swordsman, but they are equivalent in combat, but with different flavor. (specific trait names aren't important, I'm just pulling those out of the air) At the very least, a player should be able to pick Fighter and select several stat arrays within that, to ensure some kind of equity.

I will say that I do have a fondness for flavorful stat names like many PbtA games feature.

 

[Ratskinner]

Of course. I was simply seeing what the opinions where on stats as a concept for character development and mechanics. I'm striving to write something that's the best of both worlds of storytelling and encounter combat. To me it's all about how to make the character "you". I know that using numbers is a strong way to go but I want to do my research first. So again thanks everyone

There are versions of FATE that use only Aspects. Aspects would determine what tasks a character could attempt, and (depending on the version) possibly modify the roll. I almost hate to keep bringing it up, but there's a game called Capes that really turns rpg mechanics on their heads. There are even games Powered by the Apocalypse that are starting to bend that mechanic in weird ways.

 

[aramis erak]

Pardon my unfamiliarity with FATE, but it looks like they simply use Skills in place of Stats.

3 of the skills have stat-like uses, determining stress track lengths. At least in some flavors of Fate.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I would say that Paladium had a few stats that felt forced. Unless you rolled extremely well there was no use for several stats at all. To a much lesser degree charisma has become less usefull in D&D, in the (bad?) old days it provided a slew of passive effects (reactions of NPCs and henchmen most importantly) charisma feels kind of vestigial. If I wasn't on a subway I could probably scrape a few more examples together but commenting on the fly is more fun.

I still find it interesting how different people's experience is with D&D's mental stats. Intelligence is one that some people talk about as rarely coming up in action resolution, whereas it is one of the stats that comes up most often in the exploration pillar in my group (as knowledge checks). Charisma is another one of those. In my game it most often comes up in passively determining how other people respond to your presence. We have some high Charisma characters in our current group, and I describe how they tend to catch people's attention just by being around, whereas I rarely mention that with regards to the average Cha character. I also use it to inform my role-playing of NPC interactions. I rarely use it in checks with dice, but it definitely influences the play experience, and having it there informs how I run the world. By contrast, when my friend runs he asks for Charisma checks all the time when we interact with NPCs.

Very useful stats for both of us, though how much they come into mechanical action resolution varies.

Yes and no.

If some particualr trait is not called out via descriptor, then it does not affect the character's action resolution.

An example relevant to MHRP would be Batroc the Leaper's moustache. The game has no "facial hair" stat (of the top of my head I don't know of any RPG that does) - but that doesn't mean that Batroc's moustache is unremarkable. It is just called out in the picture or description, much like Prof X's baldness and wheelchair.

In D&D pre-5e there is no stat for telling you whether a person is down-to-earth or cultivated in demeanour, but that hasn't stopped such properties of people being parts of PC and NPC descriptions and being relevant to the play of the game.

Or to give another example: RM has stats for hand and foot size, but D&D doesn't; that doesn't mean all D&D PCs have the same-sized feet.

I don't think the idea that if it's not called out in numbers, it isn't salient in the fiction has ever been true in RPGing. If it's not called out in numbers, it is more likely to be merely colour rather than a component in action resolution, but that's a different thing.

I agree with that.

As you can see in my example above, it isn't about how much it matters in the fiction, it is more about having a touchstone for relevant task resolution. Now, task resolution doesn't have to be via mechanics. It can be a more passive system where stats are just used to give you an idea of what to expect. I came up with a system in D&D to do just that so I could adjudicate what stuff means in the fiction. 8-13 is an average stat, 14-15 is noticeably above average, 16-17 stands out as exceptional, and 18+ is so exceptional you (generally) can't hide it. Run that through your mind a couple times, and you have a great basis for adjudicating without rolls. In my own system the stat actually are (non-numeric, but standardized) descriptors. Normal, Significant, Exceptional, Tremendous (and some below average ones and superhuman ones also). That's all you need for most situations, and dice don't even come into it. However, in a dramatic scene where chance is desired and comparison is called for (either comparison against another character, or against a specific task difficulty) each descriptor has a number that goes along with it, that exists solely for those purposes. At the end of the resolution mechanic, the number is translated back into a descriptor for in-world interpretation.

So the main point I'm making is that if there is something that is a normal part of the human experience, and descriptors for it aren't standardized in some manner such that everyone has one and their quality can be compared against others, you find yourself in situations where three characters exist, one of which is called out as "Strong as an ox on steroids", while the other two have nothing that mentions how strong they are. Since I prefer to play at a very zoomed in, first person point of view, that makes it feel less real ("hollow") and way too arbitrary deciding what the different characters can do when it comes up. If one of the undescribed characters arm wrestles the strong guy, it's clear who probably wins. If they arm wrestle each other...?

So in my system, for instance, everyone is assumed to be in the Normal range unless they have another one of the standardized notations. You don't even have to write it down. But it's always clear where everyone stands in relationship to everyone else.

Now, I think one consideration we haven't brought up that might be informing this is when do you need action resolution? MHRP basically assumes you don't really need it unless something superheroic in nature comes into play. Story-based systems tend to lean in that direction. I like to have a system that is more zoomed in, and can resolve how someone did on a stressful chemistry test, or tell you at a glance what grade they are probably getting in that class if either of those situations came up. The longer the story goes, the more likely such things are to come up.

That's probably one of my main dislikes of narrativist leaning systems for long term play--the lack of support for details outside of the considerations of the intended story. I like rules light, but I also like rules there.

 

[Lorrdyn]

I don't hate them, but I definitely think stats are outdated. If you were to remove all other parts of a character, and leave them only with stats, it'd be hard to conceptualize the character. Couldn't something that describes my character fulfill the mechanical need, and also provide me with something more evocative?