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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zetesofos" data-source="post: 4350434" data-attributes="member: 71615">Stealth, I think we've all seen at this point, is a rather vague and wide arching concept in the D&D Universe.  But, it also seems that stealth is being used for only a few given instances.Among the various readings on the stealth skill, I would like to point out two things. Perhaps WotC missed this by not making these to things as keywords, but that is possible because these are ultimatly up to the discretion of the DM.  In any case, in stealth, two words that need to be noted are Hidden and Aware.So far, most people, for the sake of combat, having been arguing that they can gain combat advantage by being Hidden.  This, I see, is false.  No where does the PHB say you have combat advantage against any character you are hidden against.  What it DOES say is that you have Combat Advantage against any target that is not Aware of you.  Now, what's the difference between the two.  Simple enough, I would think.  Aware trumps Hidden.  A creature can be Aware of another, and yet not know it's location because it is Hidden.  However, if something is NOT Aware of a creature, it cannot simultaneously perceive it (as measured by perception).  Awareness is not covered in the PHB, to our problem, so it is left up to the players/DM to detirmine if something is aware or not.  This is a vagueness that perhaps could never be written in stone, but, for the sake of combat, they do mention something.  "Distracted Creature:.....'In combat, creatures are assumed to be paying attention in all directions'..."  This is what I would use as the best account of Awareness.  In short, once you are in combat with another creature, it is considered to be aware of you, period.  If you think some creatures are aware of you, and others are not, ask yourself why the others might not be Aware.  Are they asleep (Unconscious); are they not looking your way (Restrained, Prone are possible).  For people who use stealth for combat  (i.e. Rogues), this is what happens.  You CANNOT use Stealth as a means to give yourself combat advantage if you have just cover or concealment. This means you cannot stand behind a crate, or attack around a pillar, these only provide 'cover' or 'concealment'. And likewise, because of these types of cover, you cannot attack through them.  In combat, you must make your target unAware of you to gain combat advantage against them without any other modifiers.  The closest thing outlined to this awareness involves Superior Cover or Total Concealment. As writen "If you have superior cover or total concealment, a creature can't see you, and can't be sure of your exact location.  If it's perception check beats your stealth check, it knows you are present..."  As this shows, if you can stealth while you have superior cover, or total concealment, and beat the perception of those observing you, you can then have the target lose Awareness to you.  Again, it seems that this point that Awareness is still vague, and requires agreement and trust between the players and the DM.  However, this looks to be the case, and they are seperated into two cases.  IN COMBAT and OUT of COMBAT.OUT of COMBAT:  Characters may use stealth to become and remain Hidden.  OUT of COMBAT, creatures are not aware of any other creature that is hidden, based on the perception and senses of that sensing creature.  I would argue at this point that you are considered IN COMBAT AFTER you take an action to start combat.  I.E.  any attack made out of stealth from out of combat DOES grant combat advantage.  You could then make a stealth check to remain Hidden, but any other creature that wasn't attacked, and rendered senseless to your stealth, is now Aware of you.  IN COMBAT:  In combat, characters may use stealth to become and remain Hidden once they have obtained cover or concealment.  If at any point between the start and end of their turn, if they lose this cover or concealment, they immeditatly become unHidden.  Note*  Several Rogue utilities such as chameleon and shadow stride allow characters to remain hidden without cover or concealment, but only under other certain conditions.  Remember: Being Hidden does NOT grant Combat Advantage.  Therefore, cover and concealment are not alone sufficient.  If a character obtains 'Superior Cover' or 'Total Concealment' it may attempt a stealth check to become Hidden and ALSO have the target lose Awareness of the character, IF it's stealth check is more than there perception check.  If the character loses 'Superior Cover' or 'Total Concealment at any point between the beginning and end of it's turn, it is no longer Hidden, and subsequently, and creature that can perceive it is Aware of it.  That, I believe is the nuts and bolts of stealth.  In the simplest form, for rogues and others using stealth to acquire combat advantageHidden does NOT give you Combat Advantage alone.  This also makes sense when you see Rogue utility powers such as Hide in Plain Sightand Hide from the Light.  These powers require a character to be hidden, and grant that character Invisibility, which DOES grant Combat Advantage.  Obviously, if being hidden granted combat advantage by itself, these powers would be of no use.  For Rogues, I'm sorry to say, but you will not be sneak attacking from behind a 1 square pillar or from the corner of a wall once combat has started, as these at most only provide cover.  Behind a large crate or barrel?  This depends on the DM really, but I would rule that that these provide either 'cover' or 'Superior Cover' depending on the circumstance.  For example, you could duck behind a crate, and hold your hand above it to fire, but unless you can see your opponent (a stipulation of Combat Advantage, p 279), you can't sneak attack.  If you duck partially so you can see, you might be prone, and take a -2 to attack.  So, complicated, mayhap, but I think that's the theory behind the whole thing.  In the end, it's really common sense via annoying logic...maybe.  So, using stealth to attack would work in situations like sneaking up on a guard from a dimly lit wall, attacking through a thick fog bank that you can see through (Blind Fight perhaps), leaping from a tall ledge, or perhaps sending a phasing ammunition right through a wall you can see through.  Things that wouldn't work would be running behind an obstacle to fire at an enemy, using simple Shadow Walk to conceal yourself, or a thin mist for that matter, or attacking from behind an enemy (which doesn't work because it's cover for ranged attacks only, and besides cover is not sufficient in combat).  For rogues who want more combat advantage and therefore sneak attack, look to Hide in plain Sight to gain invisiblity, other forms of invisibility, bluff for combat advantage, your teammates to provide it via powers (a sizeable number), and of course, the all important Flanking.  As for stealth itself.  Hidden =/= Aware. (Targets that are NOT Aware of a character grant Combat Advantage to that character).  As for what Hidden and Aware mean exactly, that is up to you as a DM and a player.  WotC can't define Everything.</blockquote>

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