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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Badapple" data-source="post: 4358513" data-attributes="member: 71811">If this was just about a way to have a rogue get sneak attacks every round, then I wouldn't really care.  But everything that applies to the rogue applies to every other character and monster involved in the game.  For people that have played and say it isn't a problem I think it's because they are blessed with players that don't try to cheese every last advantage.  Unfortunately my players will try to milk everything they possibly can. In my group of seven players we have a rogue with very high stealth, and a paladin with very low stealth.  The rogue will probably attempt stealth every round, the paladin never.  But not everything is so clear cut.  We also have a wizard, cleric, fighter, and warlord and one tbd.  All of these characters have anywhere from +0 to +2 dex and at most -1 for their armor.  Basically making it a straight up d20 roll for them to see if they can beat a 12 or so passive perception for most of their typical foes. Let's say the wizard is in a square providing cover or concealment (not a bad assumption, since he probably starts out in the back behind the other characters).  What's to stop him from taking a minor action on his turn to steath, whether successful or not the standard action is to cast a spell, then the move action is to attempt stealth again?  The answer is nothing.  He SHOULD be doing this.  Same with everyone else.  Except now he's making 2 extra dice rolls per turn. So should the cleric before and after using his ranged spells.  The warlord can wind up shouting out a commander's strike as his standard, then stealthing.  Which is weird, shouting out orders then hiding but whatever it's in the rules and it's a +2 attack bonus and a +5 defense bonus (at least).  Even if he needs to roll high on the die he might as well go for it, there is no penalty for trying.  (other than extra time taken). With a fighter and paladin up front, the other 5 characters don't even have to find a pillar they can just stealth from behind the two frontliners and if they roll a 14 on the 20 sided die then they are more than likely able to get effectively +7?!?! to their defenses (+2 cover +5 being unseen) if they are even targetted. I see a really ridiculous scenario where the fighter and paladin are up front and the rest of the party of 5 players are in single file behind, all using each other to stealth and gain CA on their turn.  The monster fighting the paladin is like "wtf" as the paladin directly in front of him seemingly sprouts 5 additional pairs of shiva arms all flinging ranged attacks at his vital spots. These rolls add up.  These +2s add up.  And there's no reason why the monsters shouldn't be doing the same.  (except as Xorn has excellently pointed out the tactics section of the monster manual and the published adventures don't include this)  More dice rolling.  More mods. So, yeah, my main problem with stealth is that it's a lot of extra dice rolling slowing everything down.  And pretty huge defensive bonuses and potential record keeping / metagame concerns. I'm considering something along the lines of going with the leave line of sight and combat for one round to stealth, then come back and get CA next round interpretation of stealth, but then figuring out a way to give rogues some more SA opportunities.  Perhaps allowing rogues to use bluff/feint as a move action instead of a standard action once per encounter?</blockquote>

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