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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tonester" data-source="post: 4358635" data-attributes="member: 71788">To Sum It All UpAs sad as it may sound, I've actually gone through and read every page and every post.  I will try to do my best to give an example of how I interpret the rules as written.1) Cover - Allies and Enemies.  Your own allies grant you cover from enemies if your allies are between you and enemies and the enemy is attacking with a ranged attack.  If there are enemies between you and your intended target, then that target also has cover from you if you attack it with a ranged weapon.  Melee attacks are not affected by allies/creatures which means weapons with reach 2 can effectively attack through other enemies to your intended target and without cover.  However, terrain still grants cover from melee AND ranged attacks if applicable.  The text described in the PHB with regards to "your allies never grant cover to enemies" means that doing ranged attacks through your allies to enemies is not considered cover for your enemies and vice versa.2) Perception Checks - Standard Action vs Minor Action.  Standard Action checks are for when you are checking for ANYTHING hidden or out of the ordinary.  Minor Perception Checks are when you are trying to spot someone who has Stealthed so as to make an attack against them or against a square you think they are in.  Looking for traps, hidden treasure, a secret lever,etc during combat?  Standard Action.  Looking for signs of that Warlock that disappeared moments ago in a shadowy mist?  Minor Action.3) Perception Checks - Active vs Passive for Stealth.  When a player (or a monster) meets the conditions required to do something stealthily and then actually performs some action stealthily on THEIR turn, the "opposed check" for potential observers is a PASSIVE PERCEPTION CHECK for all applicable observers.  And since encounters usually consist of 2-4 different "groups" of monsters, there are only 2-4 different passive numbers to check against.It is up to DMs to determine how this works for monsters and communication, players and communication, etc.  I.E. If 1 or more observers have clear line of site to the stealther (no concealment or cover against these particular observers), and if these observers have some means of warning, communicating, etc effectively to other observers.  What baffles me is why would people think it is any different?Imagine a DM trying to actually have a group of lurkers sneak up on players.  "Hey, I need each of you to roll an active perception check" as the DM rolls a dice.  Obviously, the DM is rolling a Stealth vs Perception check and now its ruined.  DMs should have the Defenses, Speed, Passive Insight/Perception Checks, etc of each player already for these exact reasons.  The DM should have the highest passive Insight/Perception of the party at least.4) Conditions Required for Stealth Checks.  In order for a player to perform an action with a stealth check attached to it, the players has to meet ONE or more of the following conditions:A) Have cover (normal or superior) against potential observersB) Have concealment (normal or superior) against potential observersC) Have potential observers either distracted (out of combat), distracted via Bluff check (in combat) or unaware of you (out of combat, dazed, unconcious, blind, you are invisible, etc)D) Must not be carrying any light source which is activated (unless you are invisible magically in which case light source does not matter, or the observers are blind, dazed, etc... see unaware above)5) Breaking Stealth.  The following conditions break stealth:A) After an attack, you are unstealthed.B) After speaking, you are unstealthed.C) After activating a lightsource, you are unstealthed.D) After ending your turn without cover or concealment to observers, you are unstealthed to at least those observers (maybe more depending on DM and rules about communication... see above)E) WHILE performing any action with a failed stealth check, you are unstealthed DURING the failed action as well as AFTERF) If you happen to have whatever requirement (which granted you stealth originally) taken away from you during someone else's turn, you are then unstealthed.  I.E.  You had cover behind an ally on your turn and successfully stealthed at the end of your turn so you are "hidden" to observers.  And then, your ally moves on their turn.  You lost your cover/concealment so now you are unstealthed.  I.E. You had concealment due to low light conditions and successfully stealthed at the end of your turn.  On an enemy kobold's turn, they throw a lighted torch into a corner near you... you are unstealthed. *NOTE* This is when the Rogue's At-Will Utility Power Chameleon would most likely apply.... for circumstances where your previous stealthable condition is removed and it is no longer your turn.6) Stealth During Combat - What The Eff?  Following the rules above, I'll simply go through some examples and how I would handle them... starting with the first one provided by someone concerning their party, 2 kobolds, him running behind a corner, and then flinging a dagger/shuriken.A) Party enters a room and there are 2 kobolds standing there staring them in the face.  If the Rogue has allies providing cover to the 2 kobolds, the Rogue could make a stealth check as part of a ranged attack.  If it succeeds, the rogue would make that attack with Combat Advantage.  If the Rogue is in the front and/or does not have cover from allies, corners, or anything else, that rogue would have to move to a corner that offers cover.  No stealth check would apply to the move action since the Rogue doesn't meet the requirements for a stealth check.  Once at the corner, the Rogue has cover from the kobolds.  At this point, the Rogue could make a stealth-checked attack against the kobolds with a ranged weapon to see if it grants CA or not.  Before people get into an uproar, there IS pro-fluff that supports this just as much as there is con-fluff that shoots it down.  I.E.  The kobolds just see a halfling running for cover.  Once around the corner, it is unclear to them what the halfling's intentions were.  And, besides that, they have 5 other party members to worry about and scan in the span of 4-6 seconds (1 round).  So, they either focus ALL of their attention on a halfling which poses no apparent threat and grant EVERYONE ELSE combat advantage OR the give all threats equal observation in the span of 4-6 seconds (their turn for the round) which is all a halfling rogue needs to A) pass a stealth check and happen to pop out and hit a kobold when it wasn't looking that way for extra damage or B) fail a stealth check and happen to pop out and hit a kobold when the kobold was happening to look that way and thus, no extra damage.  Either way, as soon as the attack happens, the rogue is no longer stealthed since the kobolds now know the rogue is NOT running away, but instead, is actually hiding back there to throw dangerous objects at them.B) Similar scenario but instead of the Rogue running to cover and THEN attacking, we'll start the Rogue's turn off with them already being behind cover.  Just as before, the Rogue can attack with a stealth check to see if the attack is with CA or not.  As soon as the rogue attacks, however, they are no longer stealthed.  Now?  RAW: They must perform some other action and tack on a stealth check to it to end their turn stealthed.... which means they could perform a move action which involves a movement 1 square away and then 1 square back.  They could perform a minor action to go prone where they are and see if it is done stealthily.  Either way, this is how I would run it.  Why?  Because it allows for counter strategies (like triggers on player movement) and it also causes the player to burn actions (if they go prone, they must spend a movement action standing up before they can attack ranged) and other things DMs might come up with.  What is NOT acceptable is "I will sheathe my weapon stealthily." and now the player is stealthed.  No.  You may have put your weapon away without the kobolds noticing, but you didn't get out of site, duck behind cover, move and make them question where the last place they saw you is, etc.C) Similar situation, but now carried on AFTER the player's turn.  Quick Backstory: Player started turn behind cover.  Player successfully attacked stealthily and hit a kobold with a dagger and combat advantage.  The player then successfully moved 1 square that way and then 1 square back this way with a stealth check and ended right back behind the same cover and ended his/her turn with cover and successfully stealthed.Now, the DM goes through each monster's turn.  Most of them are tied up with fighters, warlords, and clerics nearer to the front lines.  However, there is that one kobold that keeps getting hit by daggers.  THIS KOBOLD MAKES AN ACTIVE PERCEPTION CHECK AGAINST THE ROGUE'S LAST STEALTH CHECK.  He THINKS (the perception check may grant directions, clues, or even the precise square) the rogue is behind a set of crates and so the kobold attacks a square behind a set of crates with a crossbow at -7 (-5 for total concealment since the rogue successfully stealthed and the kobold can't actually see the rogue, but only THINKS he is there and -2 for still being behind cover... assuming the kobold picked the correct square).  Now, lets assume a wizard kobold attacks a square between 2 sets of crates with a ranged burst fire spell.  This attack suffers no penalties to hit (assuming its burst actually is able to hit the square that the player is actually in and that there is no other cover between the player and the burst area).Pro-Fluff suggests, "The Rogue successfully hit the kobold with a dagger while the Kobold wasn't looking and then successful ducked back down before the Kobold could figure out it was even a dagger that hit him at all, let alone where it came from" or "The rogue hit the kobold with a dagger successfully, the kobold quickly glances over at the rogue who then FEINTS like they are running to another set of crates and the kobold quickly looks back at the fighter who is trying to chop off his head.... secure in knowing where that rogue will be next time... but not realizing that he failed his perception check and the rogue actually didn't move at all."7) Warlocks, Shadow Walk, and Stealth:  Yes - Warlocks are supposed to stealth.  Their "natural race" has a +2 to Stealth AND Bluff.  They have powers which directly reference Stealth.  They have a passive skill which keeps them in perpetual concealment every time they move 3 or more squares.How does it work?  For my people, I let Warlocks just start all encounters as if they walked 3 squares to start the encounter.  I.E. They start out with concealment and a +2 bonus to their defenses accordingly.  Shadow Walk grants concealment until the END of your next turn.  So, on a Warlock's first turn during combat, they can perform a move action and do so with a Stealth Check.  If they move 2 squares or less, they suffer no penalty to the stealth check but they DO NOT regain Shadow Walk for the remainder of the round and into their next turn.  If they move 3 squares or more, they incur a -5 penalty to the stealth check (unless they have the feat or item or power which ables them to do so without a penalty) but they do regain Shadow Walk until the end of their next turn which also means they keep their concealment (and their stealth if they passed the check) until the end of their next turn.What does all of this mean?  It means if a Warlock is constantly moving/teleporting, they can pretty much keep concealment up all the time.  If they end their turn on a stealth-checked movement of 3 squares or more, they are stealthed/concealed until the end of their next turn or until they perform any of the actions which cause them to unstealth or until someone else happens to do something which takes away their concealment when it isn't the warlock's turn.  This means they too can perform many of their attacks with Combat Advantage.In fact, I strongly suggest Warlocks "set up" their encounter or daily powers this way to give themselves the best chance of not wasting them on a horrible miss.... especially if you don't have a magically enhanced implement.  Much the same way that Rangers or Rogues should set up their daily's or encounters... although elves tend to be Rangers and Rogues more often than Warlocks so Elven Accuracy helps them in this regard.  I digress...Yes, they were meant to be played this way.8) Ranger vs. Melee Rogue vs. Warlock vs. Ranged Rogue vs Etc.  Staying primarily stealthed at range does help YOU.  It helps you hit and it also helps you get hit less.  However, being melee has its advantages as well... especially to a GROUP.It offers flanking advantages to your teammates (combat advantage, +hit, etc).  It lets healers get more effeciency out of their burst heals.  It gives Warlords more "pieces" to work with for their mini-chess games and powers.  It gives enemies less room to shift/work with in terms of getting to your squishies.These are striker classes and they are meant to hit often.... i.e. have combat advantage often.  Fighters have reliable powers to help curb not getting CA quite as often (although having melee strikers HELPS!).  Warlocks, Rangers, and Rogues can stealth, gain concealment/cover, and flank for combat advantage.... not to mention powers that grant it.  And then you have the Wizard with its many anti-stealth skills, multiple attack roll skills, miss effects, sustains, conjurations to create even more concealment (CA) for teammates, etc.  And then you have your Paladins, Clerics, and Warlords who are kind of sol and don't get CA as often OR have reliable powers... but they aren't meant to dish out as much raw damage as a striker, wizard, or fighter.If I left anything out... or if there is another scenario which isn't covered, please say something.Do I think the book could have done a better job?  Definitely.  Do I think it works and makes sense as written once you understand it?  Definitely.  If WoTC ends up errata'ing it to say something different.... I'll start using it that way... but this is how I see it working and it:A) Doesn't require hardly any extra dice rolls at allB) Is pretty simple once you understand itC) Does have fluff wich does support the mechanicsD) Lets rogues, rangers, and warlocks feel like true strikersE) Doesn't unbalance anything as far as I can tell or as far as CSR has communicated as wellCheers and sorry if my tone with earlier posts upset anyone.*EDIT* Forgot a scenario9)  Remaining Stealthed - Perform ALL actions with Stealth Checks.  Your rogue has been in melee and took quite a beating the last couple of rounds.  Your fighter has marked it, but it smells blood and wants to finish you off.  You are almost dead.  In a last ditch effort, you distract/bluff the creature long enough to try and sneak off.A) You successfully pass your Distract/Bluff Check.B) This allows you to move OR attack with a stealth check tacked onto it.  If you attack with a successful stealth check, you'll have CA.  If you move with a successful stealth check, you can actually WALK/MOVE away from the monster and not provoke an opportunity attack (but only from the distracted/bluffed monster... any other adjacent baddies would get an OA).  For me, the player must specify BEFORE rolling if they will shift or move... and then roll to find out if it works.  At any rate, you successfully pass the check, and luckily, there is a stone column close enough to walk behind (grants cover).  At the end of your turn, you decide to drink a Potion of Healing as a minor action.  THIS MUST ALSO BE DONE WITH A *NEW* STEALTCH CHECK!  Maybe the potion makes a big *poink* sound as you take the cork out.  Maybe you drop it and make some noise.  Who knows.  But, if you want to do it without drawing attention to yourself or giving away your new location (behind the column), you need to drink the potion with a successful stealth check.  Assuming it succeeds, you are now successfully stealthed behind a column which grants cover, and thus, grants stealth (unless one of the many things listed earlier cancels it).C) Lets assume there was no stone column close enough to reach with your walk speed.  You could try running but you would incur a -10 penalty.  That is too risky and you don't want to risk the OA from the monster you bluffed so you decide to walk as far as you can.  You successfully walk your movement speed stealthed and you successfully drank your potion stealthily as well, but you didn't make it behind cover or into low light (for concealment) and its the end of your turn.  You are no longer stealthed.  All monsters in combat will now be aware of you... including the one you bluffed/distracted if it hasn't had its turn yet.</blockquote>

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